theworldofdreams.com

Joram Lionheart wrote:

Bayn wrote:One key thing I enjoyed about WoD was the fact that anyone I might meet our in the forest was a potential friend, not a potential enemy.

In a PvP environment you must always assume the worst in people (at least at first). That is, if you want to survive. Random acts of kindness are not necessarily encouraged either because you never when you'll be deceived, duped, cheated, or backstabbed. And remember that public opinion and rules of etiquette can't help you much when you are being chased by a guild of murderous powergamers.

Oh, I quite agree with you, Joram. WoD wouldn't be WoD with the addition of PvP but that is probably not the issue here. In an attempt to revive a failing shard, PvP might indeed be the ingredient to bring new life (now isn't THAT an ironic concept!) to the shard. Of course, many will say that WoD isn't fading away and everything is peachy keen or things will get better or whatEVER. That's cool too, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

2. I guess it depends on who you are asking. A wizard can handle either of the two easily but obviously the single more powerful monster is a greater threat..I can't answer for any other classes.

3. The very first day I started I was killed by two players by some sort of explosion. They res'd me, apoligized, and gave me gold.

4.I thin when the dopplegangers invaded Britain. Somehow my character had become gray and the other players would start attacking me not knowing which gray player to attack.

5. I would say I'm for any type of pvp because killing "drones" does get really boring after a while.

Joram,

I often wonder just how many people are 'nice' on WoD just because there is no other alternative. It would be a true test of faith, I believe, if people in WoD had the choice to be nice, and still remained to do so in the future. In any case, one must take the good with the bad, and not ignore the bad in a hope that it won't exist. WoD will always have unpopular, selfish, or negative people. Hey, I haven't quit yet!

The childlike nature of the "family shard" has it's limitations, specifically in the area of growth, because it is limited to what is not best for everyone, but what everyone finds appropriate. Given the extremely (sometimes sickeningly so) conservative nature of most of the player base, it's hardly a surprise in that there are very few, if any, avenues for player growth in this place.

Since coming to WoD, I've always struggled to resist the indoctrination I believe exists in the shard. It seems that the longer a player exists in WoD, the less change he or she is willing to take on, and the less arguments exist as critical, intellectual points of view. Now, in that generalisation (and it is a hideous, ugly thing) there are major exceptions.

But, the key point is that you can measure a WoDians term of service to WoD by the arguments they present.

The prime example being the adherence to the "if you dont like it, leave" point of view, that I will never, ever accept as 'fact', as "true" as it may be.

Tel'Imoen, who I believe has spent about the same time in WoD (or at least did) as you, when I discussed the issue (of PvP), basically raised every point you did, Joram. And I find that while that makes them valid and logical, it also makes them predictable and subjective at the same time.

It is more than a little hypocritical to praise the values of WoD when there exists no room for anything else. If you have a world where it is not possible to do anything but be nice, why should we praise those values so highly? There are two ways to deal with disruptions and disagreements that occur: the "If you don't like it, leave" argument, and the 'trying to ignore it until it goes away' one.

One of the key arguments that repeatedly comes up is not the issue of PvP at all, but rather an inherent distrust of the player base not being able to control themselves when given leave to do as they please, that WoD lacks the certain qualities in a player base that would be required to run a successful PvP shard.

Joram Lionheart wrote:Basically, perfect people who do not get their feelings hurt easily, who don't assume the worse about their peers, who don't mind being told when they're wrong or letting go when they're defeated. In other words, you'd need the kind of people this world (and WoD) lacks.

And that's fair enough. I'm not dismissing your doubts completely, as I believe that any major change as drastic as introducing PvP would have a significant positive *and* negative effect on the shard. But perhaps the most important point is, that it would have an effect at all.

For a very, very long time now, I've been waxing poetic (about a lot of things, but mostly) that the shard is static. And I've gone into this issue countless times on my well-used soap-box, having over and over and over and over again claimed that very point. As to this:

Joram Lionheart wrote:Now you say the world is dying and the situtation necessitates drastic changes. I agree. All I am saying is that if you think PvP is the road you want to take you better be prepare to forget about Happy Dreamland. If this shard goes PvP it will NOT be the World of Dreams anymore.

WoD will never be what it was two years ago, or three, or four. It is an unfair comparision to claim that the WoD of today is any worse than what it is now. If anything, it is the lack of the former playing community to instil those values they hold dear, to interact with the newer players in any other form than giving them items. Again, exceptions exist, but I challenge anyone to prove that there is not a significant rift between the 'old' player base, and the new.

Question: What "is" the World of Dreams? Ask twenty people, and you will get twenty different answers. Certainly, WoD is not what you, or I want it to be, specifically, but that does not make it not-WoD.

I cannot help but wonder how much you oppose this issue on a personal level. If an 'official' guild system were in place that the Order Guards could use, I would daresay that you would be the first to argue for it's benefit. What interests me is how much people put their own personal benefit and playing interest at the forefront of their desires in seeing change to WoD.

Whatever the case may be, it stands to reason that the Admin are making changes of their own volition, (seemingly) irrespective of any player imput. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong on this point, because it would show to me a significant shift in the attitude of the World of Dreams. That, more than anything, is what this shard needs.

Perhaps, admittedly, that is what I was looking for in the case of PvP. Not so much the conflict, but a shift in the attitudes of the players and the admin. It would be a glorious day, I think, if WoD would step out of it's conservative comfort zone and try something that had the slightest chance of failure or risk, because those are the things that are rewarding. Ultimately, they may cause the end of it too - but everything ends, and so will WoD. I, for one, would rather it had a glorious, noble and proud history, rather than a long and dull one.

If you are willing, I would leave the PvP issue at rest entirely Joram, and focus on the crux of the argument: attitude. Again I pose you a question;

What kind of changes in attitude need to be in place for WoD to have a rennaisance` of sorts?

-M

1. What does WoD have that makes it more appealing (to attract more customers) as compared to the up-and-coming MMORPGS out there?

I probably don't know enough about the new stuff coming out to be able to comment intellegently on that part. That it is a family orient shard is probably the biggest single selling point, a place where someone could fairly confidently bring thier childeren to play without worrying about them becomming overly corrupted. For me the culture of the shard is more important than the underlying physics.

2. Which encounter is more threatening and why: a group of mid-to-low level mobs attacking in a group, or a single, very high powerful monster?

The single high level monster will be more threatning as hords of low to mid level stuff can often be ignored, for instance it isn't all that difficult to stand still in a swarm of (non casting) trolls and just wait for them all to die.

3. How would you explain your first experience in WoD, and how does it affect how you now play?

It's been too long for me to really remember the first experiences, also just having come from a more pvp oriented server I wasn't really that keen on actually talking to people and stuck to myself for quite a while.

That said, some time after I did actually start talking, I casually mentioned saving up gold for a house I wanted to buy, still being short by some 250k (or therabouts) and someone who hardly new more than my name offered me a loan for the rest I needed, I held out for a few days but as it happend I eventually did take them up on the offer.

4. What is the most memorable Seer Quest/Event you have ever been on?

It's too hard to say really, all quests are special in thier own way, as it means someone went out of thier way to provide something a little extra and special for the other players on the shard.

If I had to pick one, possibly the Buc's Den Challenge.

5. Should PvP be introduced to WoD?

The shard already has PvP now, you just have to ask for consent first, or at least be really, really, sure you know the person well enough they will take it in stride and not page.

Marius the Black wrote:What kind of changes in attitude need to be in place for WoD to have a rennaisance` of sorts?

Why do you feel an attitude needs to be adjusted?

As Eldric and others mentioned, PvP exists so that is really a non-issue. Sure, it could be opened up but as I mentioned, opening it up will open up exploitation and who needs that?

Most of the regulars enjoy things as they are. Sure, there are "cliches" but there are very good reasons for that. As I said in a previous post, I loved the fact that I could meet someone in the forest and greet them as a potential friend rather than a potential enemy. To me, that makes it all worthwhile.

WoD will never be what it supposedly was in the past. Anyone that misses the "glory days" of WoD is just indulging in nostalgia. Nothing inherently wrong with that except it is meaningless and doesn't help anything. Universal Rule #1: Nothing stays the same, entropy exists. Universal Rule #2: Stop crying and get over it. WoD could be much, much more than it ever was.

*start of techy opinion*

If you are looking for a renaissance, WoD needs to dump POL and go with AOS RunUO as an engine. The scripting language, C#, is simple to learn and extraordinarily powerful. The engine is much faster and more complete than POL can hope to attain. Imagine no lag, WoD could have it. With a RunUO server, you would have the complete world, not just a limited subset that POL struggles to support. All the New Lands, Malas and whatever else OSI has developed since the early days of UO. New MOBs that WoD hasn't seen, new activities, new MOBs, new professions, everything. If that wouldn't promote a renaissance, I don't know what will.

Shoot, in just a couple of days, I setup a RunUO server on my computer, fully populated, special spawning where desired, customized skill and stat gains to my preference, I added many WoD-like commands that I especially liked, and so on. I found a lot of scripts on runuo.com that did most or part of what I wanted and just modified 'em. If I took the time to sit down and read the manual, I could do virtually anything with it. Maybe when Winter blows in..hmmm.

We aren't talking rocket science here (or I couldn't do it!), it is only C#, a well structured object oriented language that anyone with any level of programming talent could learn. Yeah, it has to run on a Windows/.NET platform but this ain't a perfect world.

There is an immense player base out there and lots of support. It also does not matter a whit if the RunUO engine ever evolves either. You want a different world, different skills and professions, different or additional anything ... you can do it with RunUO.

I know there are stolid, unwavering POL apologists out there but clinging to an outdated, inflexible system just because "it's always been that way", but that is just silly.

I have no special dislike of POL, I found I could script in it fairly well with little effort, but why even bother when you get 1000% more with RunUO?

*end of techy opinion*

Marius the Black wrote:I often wonder just how many people are 'nice' on WoD just because there is no other alternative. It would be a true test of faith, I believe, if people in WoD had the choice to be nice, and still remained to do so in the future

Umm, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that tantamount to saying let's do away with the laws and law enforcers to see how many people are true Americans and love their country. Those that opt for stealing, murdering, raping, etc, etc are not true Americans because they're not behaving nicely (or honorably) on their own accord.

It is my opinion that if you want a stable society you'll always need to put limits and regulations on the exercise of people's freedoms (my freedom ends where yours begins and so on and so forth). Forcing people to PvP (because that's what a PvP switch does) basically removes people's choice to become involve in that type of activity or not. But in any event, even if you could somehow have a Felucca and Trammel WoD in the same server, the shard would be divided between those who want to fight and those who want to be left alone (and have things go back to the way they used to be). Somehow I don't see that working out.

Since coming to WoD, I've always struggled to resist the indoctrination I believe exists in the shard. It seems that the longer a player exists in WoD, the less change he or she is willing to take on, and the less arguments exist as critical, intellectual points of view.

I think that's what you've chosen to believe. Granted, I know there are some people who basically could care less for arguments and just go along with what the majority decides. I don't think indoctrination is the right word though. Lack of interest or indifference would be a more suited description. At least the people I've talked to in-game all seem to have opinions of their own. They just don't take the time to voice their opinions outside the bank's chatting area.

The prime example being the adherence to the "if you dont like it, leave" point of view, that I will never, ever accept as 'fact', as "true" as it may be.

I think that's your problem. You don't want to believe what people tell you. Blame it on indoctrination, blame it on the oldbies, blame it on anything else instead of actually taking my word of experience as true. Hey, there's a word to describe that kind of behaviour but I don't think you'd like to hear that.

Tel'Imoen, who I believe has spent about the same time in WoD (or at least did) as you,

That no0b? He joined about a year and a half after I did

when I discussed the issue (of PvP), basically raised every point you did, Joram. And I find that while that makes them valid and logical, it also makes them predictable and subjective at the same time.

Right . . . subjective. You mean as your opinion is. 'Cause you do know that your own opinions are just that, subjective. And of course you are just as predictable as I am. I mean everyone knows your arguments for evil RPing and the such. I guess since you are predictable and your opinions subjective you're not qualified to speak on this issue. Case closed!

It is more than a little hypocritical to praise the values of WoD when there exists no room for anything else.

Ahh I see. So in order to ensure people can honestly praise the American values the constitution must not only gurantee the freedom of speech, it must also leave the option open to supress it! Of course, it does seem to create some sort of functional dilemma, doesn't it? If they are enforced by law American values are no longer values?

If you have a world where it is not possible to do anything but be nice, why should we praise those values so highly?

Oh but you can be naughty if you want. You'd just have to pay the consequences afterwards. It's like murder. Anyone can commit murder anytime they feel like it. You have the freedom to do so. But the family of the murdered person and the state also have the freedom (and duty) to prosecute you for your actions. Otherwise civilization collapses and everyone does what they feel like doing. The law of the jungle, the state of nature, where might makes right, you know, like a PvP shard.

But perhaps the most important point is, that it would have an effect at all.

So would killing the shard. If given the choice between turning WoD into an Ackadia and shutting it down, I'd opt for leaving the shard rest in peace. But then that's not my decision to make (or yours for that matter).

WoD will never be what it was two years ago, or three, or four. It is an unfair comparision to claim that the WoD of today is any worse than what it is now. If anything, it is the lack of the former playing community to instil those values they hold dear, to interact with the newer players in any other form than giving them items.

"Instill those values" . . . you mean like indoctrinating them? Anyhow, I'm sure a PvP switch will bring all the good people back. Yup, that's just what the good ol' WoD spirit needs. MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!

Question: What "is" the World of Dreams? Ask twenty people, and you will get twenty different answers. Certainly, WoD is not what you, or I want it to be, specifically, but that does not make it not-WoD.

It is much easier to say what WoD is not. Ask twenty people and I'm sure more than half will tell you the World of Dreams is not a den of jerks and powergamers.

I cannot help but wonder how much you oppose this issue on a personal level. If an 'official' guild system were in place that the Order Guards could use, I would daresay that you would be the first to argue for it's benefit.

I cannot help to wonder why every time we argue something and you're not able to convince me of your position you make this into something personal. Like I have a secret agenda behind the positions I take. I guess my logic is flawed simply because I have a bias. My arguments are not good because I'm human. Sheesh. Well let me tell you where my bias stems from (AGAIN). I'd hate to see WoD become what you are asking it to become. I'm leaving this shard. I'm going away for a whole year (or more). I won't be here to find out what happens to WoD. In other words, the only reason I'm arguing this is to make sure WoD either dies a good, natural death, or continues on but still as the WoD I joined five years ago (with the same ideals and values). If you don't like the ideals and values you'll have to go somewhere else (or better yet, start your own shard!). I'm sorry but you can't change WoD values without killing the shard. There's no way around it.

If you are willing, I would leave the PvP issue at rest entirely Joram, and focus on the crux of the argument: attitude. Again I pose you a question;
What kind of changes in attitude need to be in place for WoD to have a rennaisance` of sorts?

Been there, done that. It's not my place to say anymore. I leave you and the rest of WoD players to work that out.

This is one of the things I will NOT miss about WoD.

Atei wrote:This is one of the things I will NOT miss about WoD.

I concur.