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Postby Ehran on Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:07 pm

Anonymous wrote:Jet fuel -- somewhat similar to common kerosene and not much different than charcoal lighter fluid -- burns at roughly 875 degrees. Whether a little or a lot of fuel is burned, it still burns at roughly the same temperature.

Hardened steel such as that used in the WTC beams and girders needs temperatures of approximately TWENTY-EIGHT HUNDRED (2,800) degrees to actually melt, and temperatures approaching 2,000 degrees to turn bright red and soften.


its a matter of calories. if calories accumulate faster than they are carried away then the temp goes up. this is how you can heat something hotter than the fire heating it under some circumstances.
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Postby Laephis on Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:50 am

Threads like these make baby Jebus cry.
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Postby Bayn on Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:51 am

Laephis wrote:Threads like these make baby Jebus cry.


This is my favorite post in this entire thread! hehehe, "...make baby Jebus cry." hehe.

Laephis, you are my hero.
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Postby Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:19 am

I guess I have to provide a more detailed description of the scenario I am considering regarding the the hijacker identities.

First of all of the 19 (maybe 20) hijackers only a few would need to be impersonated and killed. If you consider the media stories regarding the backgrounds of the alleged hijackers you will see that they only concern the so called ringleader Mohammed Atta. We get interviews with the ringleader's flight instructor, parents and roommates and then just assume all the other hijackers have stories as well.

So a possible theory with verifiable information bold. Someone had the innocent Atta's stolen passport. A mossad agent gets plastics surgery to look like Atta and impersonates him in a flight school near where the real Atta lived. The imposter thus drops clues that will eventually damn Atta (and inadvertly drops clues that he doesn't understand German as the real Atta did.) The imposter leaves the school conveniently telling the instructor he is headed for Boston. The imposter is recorded getting on a plane from Portland to Boston the morning of 9-11. Somebody plants his passport near the WTC (do you seriously believe a passport could survive the explosion of that crash?) The real Atta is murdered as soon as possible thereafter.

Other hijackers would just need stolen passports. High level FBI who were in on the conspiracy could feed misinformation about Atta being the ringleader. And the rest of identities sloppily taken from a database of possible suspects who fit the foreign arab profile.



Also consider the case of Zacarias Moussaoui:
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html
After arrousing the suspicion of his flight intructor he was eventually arrested by FBI a month before 9-11 (at the persistance of his intructor with the FBI.) Here is an interesting "coincidence":
Oberstar said the flight instructor, a retired military pilot, grew suspicious after he began speaking French to Moussaoui. Oberstar said Moussaoui seemed not to understand, said he wasn't fluent in French, didn't live in France long and added: "I'm from the Middle East."
The instructor found it odd that Moussaoui said he was from the Middle East, rather than identifying a country, Oberstar said. When the instructor inquired further, Moussaoui grew belligerent, several sources said.
It was not clear whether Moussaoui, who was born in France and attended French schools as a youth, did not understand French or merely chose not to speak it.

At the time FBI agents were forbidden from investigating other suspicious flight students and Moussaoui's computer.

Now Moussaoui is being tried as a 9-11 conspirator. His ongoing trial is highly irregular and suspicious:
http://crime.about.com/library/weekly/a ... jacker.htm
Federal judges are trying to silence him and he is trying to silence his appointed attorney.


Drocket wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... iden23.xml
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Daily ... 10920.html

The FBI has still not updated its list despite these developments.

Just because someone claims to be a particular person doesn't mean that they actually are (AKA - there are a lot of weirdos in the world.)


How about you actually read those articles? Not only do these living people have the same name, but the have the same face, the same life. Don't you think all the television and news reporters (outside of the US) interviewing them would notice if the were different people. Why would a Saudi prince declare their innocence if they were just wackos. These are people who have actually lived in America. One is an actual commercial flight pilot in the middle east, another lost a passport in Denver, etc.

As for the list not being updated, it seems like a massive world-wide conspiracy would keep on top of that sort of thing, doesn't it? [/quest]
"First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution."

Why update the list and draw attention to its fallibility when they can (obviously successfully) prevent anyone from even hearing about the issue at all?
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Postby Raiden Stydoran on Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:53 am

Give it up guest. Drocket will just come and shoot holes through your stupid little posts. Your a quack that can't see straight and your wrong. In fact every time you go to type you lose so get over it.
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Postby Drocket on Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:04 am

Anonymous wrote:Someone had the innocent Atta's stolen passport.

Why? Print up a fake one. If they control the government, it would be a lot easier and safer to simply copy the original instead of making Atta get a second one that may differ from the first in ways that would later make it provable that the found passport was the stolen one.

impersonates him in a flight school near where the real Atta lived.

And if the flight instructors happen to meet the real Atta at the mall?

Other hijackers would just need stolen passports. High level FBI who were in on the conspiracy could feed misinformation about Atta being the ringleader. And the rest of identities sloppily taken from a database of possible suspects who fit the foreign arab profile.

Back the idiot-savant conspirators. I'm amazed that you think there's an international conspiracy that was able to pull off an insanely complicated plot yet was so ridiculously laxadasical about the details. They seem to need/have hundreds if not thousands of people working carefully on the project for years, to time things precisly, plant evidence, control the media and law enforcement, secretly plant explosives in the WTC to cause it to implode - yet they just pick random names off a list to blame it on. :roll:

The instructor found it odd that Moussaoui...

This might be a bit more credible if Moussaoui didn't seem to be completely insane (or something.)

His ongoing trial is highly irregular and suspicious:

Yep. Bush isn't real big on the whole 'freedom' thing. Of course, the fact that he's alive and getting a trial at all (and especially one that's been at least moderately visible) causes some problems for the conspiracy theory...

Why would a Saudi prince declare their innocence if they were just wackos.

Well, for one, if they were alive, it would help clear Saudi Arabia's reputation, which has taken a major beating...
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Postby Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:08 am

Ehran wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Jet fuel -- somewhat similar to common kerosene and not much different than charcoal lighter fluid -- burns at roughly 875 degrees. Whether a little or a lot of fuel is burned, it still burns at roughly the same temperature.

Hardened steel such as that used in the WTC beams and girders needs temperatures of approximately TWENTY-EIGHT HUNDRED (2,800) degrees to actually melt, and temperatures approaching 2,000 degrees to turn bright red and soften.


its a matter of calories. if calories accumulate faster than they are carried away then the temp goes up. this is how you can heat something hotter than the fire heating it under some circumstances.

I notice your explanation isn't very detailed. Can you elaborate? Can you account for such an enormous temperature discrepancy?

Lets talk a little about heat transfer. The fastest vehicle for heat transfer by far is convection, heat carried in a fluid such as the atmosphere. Diffusion is extremely slower and radiation even more so.

A jet fuel fire heats steel beams by means of diffusion. In diffusion, heat only spreads from hotter
to colder areas. Even if the entire WTC was engulfed in flame it would only heat to about the same temperature as the flame, otherwise the flow of heat would be going the other way. The steel might be heated slightly hotter because of its friction with the flame, but such an effect would be almost negligable and in no way could account for a thousand degree difference.

The reason a lot of fuel (more internal calories) burns at close to the same temperature as some fuel (less internal calories) is that the release of these stored calories is limited by the rate of the actual combustion reaction. Its a matter of the surface area of a fire meeting fresh atmosphere rather than the volume of the fuel.

Jet fuel cannot burn without oxygen. Hydrocarbon chains break apart and join with O2 resulting in faster moving CO2 and water molecules. This extra kinetic energy (heat) is carried by convection away from the source of the fire (out of the building) almost entirely. There is no way for these calories to accumlate in once place becoming hotter than the flame and the hottest parts of the fire around the impact hole and broken windows on the floor.

Not only that, but I think most of jet fuel was expended in the huge flame plumes that escaped the building immediatly following the collisions.

Might that explain why the fire fighters that reached the fire calmly requested line crews to enter the building and put out two "isolated pockets" of fire on the 78th floor (before the building unexpectedly collapsed and the all died)?

Does this look like a fire capable of softening steel?
Image
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Postby Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:04 am

Drocket wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Someone had the innocent Atta's stolen passport.

Why? Print up a fake one. If they control the government, it would be a lot easier and safer to simply copy the original instead of making Atta get a second one that may differ from the first in ways that would later make it provable that the found passport was the stolen one.

For every passport their is a record of that passport. Investigators would likely check the passport to see if its real by comparing its information to its respective numerical record.

You might say "But if they control everything why wouldn't they just get an official passport made for them or coover it up after the fact?" As you have said there couldn't be many conspirators, thus they would want things as kosher as possible when they can.

impersonates him in a flight school near where the real Atta lived.

And if the flight instructors happen to meet the real Atta at the mall?

Atta would act like he doesn't know him and the instructor would think he's an asshole, like when he couldn't respond to german small talk. If the FBI get invovled (as with Moussaoui) then when the time comes another guy will be the ringleader instead.

I can't be sure where he actually lived at any rate.

Other hijackers would just need stolen passports. High level FBI who were in on the conspiracy could feed misinformation about Atta being the ringleader. And the rest of identities sloppily taken from a database of possible suspects who fit the foreign arab profile.

Back the idiot-savant conspirators. I'm amazed that you think there's an international conspiracy that was able to pull off an insanely complicated plot yet was so ridiculously laxadasical about the details. They seem to need/have hundreds if not thousands of people working carefully on the project for years, to time things precisly, plant evidence, control the media and law enforcement, secretly plant explosives in the WTC to cause it to implode - yet they just pick random names off a list to blame it on. :roll:

Um, how can you explain how the FBI are so "ridiculously laxadasical about the details" if they are not covering something up? Those alleged hijackers are alive and thats a fact, and the FBI doesn't care if you don't know.

I'm surprised you think a guy in an Afgan cave could pull it off. You seem to think he's confessed several times but where's your evidence?

I don't think it would thousands of people years to do it, I think it would take relatively few people in key positions of power to do it, and that Zionists have held these positions of power for decades. Look at who owns/controls our media companies, look at who controls the federal reserve board, look at who is top in the CIA & FBI, look at the top people in the pentagon, look at Bush's cabinet, look at 40 billon dollars and weapons we give to Israel every year. Zionists have an overwhelming presence. Nixon said he couldn't say it decades ago.

The instructor found it odd that Moussaoui...

This might be a bit more credible if Moussaoui didn't seem to be completely insane (or something.)

Yeah, thats what they say about people who claim conspiracies. Thats also what someone would claim if they wanted to hold him incapable of representing himself.


His ongoing trial is highly irregular and suspicious:

Yep. Bush isn't real big on the whole 'freedom' thing. Of course, the fact that he's alive and getting a trial at all (and especially one that's been at least moderately visible) causes some problems for the conspiracy theory...

1. The trial is behind closed doors.
2. The people Bush is holding without trial in Cuba weren't US residents. It would definetly be unconstitution if a US resident didn't get a trial, and Moussaoui has been publicly known since his arrest.
3. If the link him to Mohammed Atta, convict him, and sentence him to death, it will silence him and strengthen the going story at the same time.

Why would a Saudi prince declare their innocence if they were just wackos.

Well, for one, if they were alive, it would help clear Saudi Arabia's reputation, which has taken a major beating...

They are alive (except in the US.)
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Postby Drocket on Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:10 pm

Anonymous wrote:For every passport their is a record of that passport. Investigators would likely check the passport to see if its real by comparing its information to its respective numerical record.

By your own admission, then, there's a way to tell one passport from another. That means that investigators would quite easily be able to tell that the found passport was the one that had been stolen years earlier, not the one that he had been issued after that.

And don't give me the 'investigators were stopped from looking into it' line again: if the conspirators could prevent investigators from discovering that the passport had been declared stolen years before, it would have been just as easy to prevent investigators from realizing that its a fake passport.

No matter how you spin it, the theft of the passport years before would be completely 100% unneccessary and nothing but an additional security risk.

I can't be sure where he actually lived at any rate.

No matter where the real Atta lived, there's tons of things that he could do that would prove he wasn't in the flight schol and would be very difficult to cover up. Friends the real Atta made, his work or school schedule, his location, etc, etc.

Um, how can you explain how the FBI are so "ridiculously laxadasical about the details" if they are not covering something up?

Because they're mostly incompetent (especially those at the top, who have been promoted on the Peter Prinicle.) I would expect something better from a major international conspiracy, especially considering how well they've pulled off the rest of the alleged plot. Again, considering what an amazingly perfect job they've done holding up investigators, destroying evidence, silencing dissenters, keeping news organizations out the the way, etc, etc, that they would do such a sloppy job of picking who to blame it on simply doesn't fit their style.

Yeah, thats what they say about people who claim conspiracies. Thats also what someone would claim if they wanted to hold him incapable of representing himself.

Or perhaps he was slightly crazy from the start, and the stress and strain of acting undercover was simply too much for him and he eventually cracked. Which would be why the other hijackers left him behind - he was simply too unstable to take along.

The fact that he's around at all is hard to explain from the conspiracy theory point of view. If he's an actor set to impersonate an Arab to further incriminate the group, it seems like an unneccessary risk to do what could have so easily be done other ways (more fake evidence.) You'd have to make sure you picked a committed Zionist, since with years of trial ahead of him, he has ample opportunity to regret his choices and decide to spill the beans. If he's who he says he is, an 'innocent' person who had nothing to do with the antics at all, then the longer he's around the more likely it is that he'll convince people that he's actually innocent. Despite the government's best efforts to keep things under wraps, he's coming into contact with a lot of people.

They are alive (except in the US.)

You asked for a reason that a Saudi prince would falsely declare them to be the 'real' people and I gave you one. You simply come back with a blanket statement that ignore the arguments. And so, I'm guessing that this discussion is coming to a close, since we seem to have reached the point where you're unable to even present arguments to counter my own and are forced to switch over the to 'La-la-la-la-la can't hear you' method of debate...
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Postby Elwen Dragonfire on Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm

god whom ever you are "guest" just give up. Cant you see that your losing?? Or are you too stupid to see that your really messed up in the head and cant see that Drocket is right and your just creepy and wrong...
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Postby Azzo Ranar on Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:16 pm

No, mixing the proverbial poo is just up his alley, and by nit picking it back and forth he is accomplishing a good deal of chaos. Just the thing a button pusher loves to do. Thank you all for playing his game and making him a happier person it really was the humanitarian thing to do.
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Postby Celeste Kendreyl on Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:32 pm

I think I know who our "mystery guest" is! Well, i have 2 viable theories: First- he is Atta himself! Trying to draw the heat off of himself by attempting to confuse the public, via a "public" message board! Yeah, that's it...

Or, secondly- he is Osama Bin Laden! Ya see, he tried going all out one time, took out two beautiful towers, and killed thousands of innocent people... but then we went and trounced his country and every training camp he had for his little pygmy assassins- so this time around he figures he'll start small, whittle away at our moral fiber by creating dissention among the public and skewing their views by spreading his disease over the internet.

OR... thirdly, maybe he's just a freak. I tried to be nice to him, and politely ask him to stop. I explained that nobody here believed his crap, and that if anyone had wanted his two cents, they would have sought it out themselves. He felt compelled to knock on our door though... bright and early, and try to force his beliefs upon us. At this point, I am no longer upset or mad. I am sincerely saddened and sorry for this poor mislead soul. He must truly believe his views are the only possible explanation, even when faced with the blinding truth- he still retorts and tries to get his point heard. It very nearly makes you almost admire him for his convictions... ALMOST...

Buddy! Hey! Yeah, YOU! We HEARD you! We got it! We read your nonsense. We read it again, and again, and again.... We definitely heard you! We still think you're a fanatic. Go away now please.
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Postby Ehran on Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:24 pm

its exactly the same principle that a blast furnace works on. the fire heating the blast furnace isn't as hot as the furnace but there is a lot of it and the blast furnace cannot radiate the heat away as fast as its being added. the temp in the furnace goes up until the steel melts.
most of the fuel entered the buildings and would have had a hard time escaping initially i would think. also do you have any conception of how much fuel is aboard one of those planes? each of which was a medium or long haul flight ie loaded with lots of fuel.
the surprising thing isn't that this happened but that it didn't happen 20 years ago.
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Postby Joram Lionheart on Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:40 pm

Nah, nah, nah, you all got it wrong again. You have the read the subject line. It says, "Censored posts." Our not-so-dear guest (who I believe is Conspiracy Lyl), came here to tell us--in no uncertain terms--that he was most upset at the fact that his posts have not been--thus far--properly censored. Though he apparently began arguing against censorship, that did not last long. Instead he persisted in pointing out that ludicrous junk of his as if his subconscious was trying to tell us "Look! How more ridiculous could my posts get! I don't know jack about anything and would believe anything I find on the web! Please censor me! Please!" Clearly guest is a desperate, poor character who is suffering from the I-crave--attention/I-believe-my-own-nonsense sydrome, a disease most commonly found in Trolls.

In short, guest's psychological profile would seem to indicate that the poor man is just screaming for help and attention. Having long been banished from our lands, guest is desperetaly seeking to fill that hole in his soul left by our absence. Obviously, he was trying to start some sort of flame-war with lots of replies to him, a device designed to satisfy his oversized ego.

However, somewhere deep inside his subconscious mind, guest realizes that this is no way to live. The only way to overcome his ever urging desire to troll our msg boards again in the future, and finally be forced to move on with his pitiful life, is to be officially banished from the WoD boards too. This is why guest has spent hours fabricating this extremely ridiculous conspiracy, so unbelieavable and paranoia-ridden that even the most gullible of our members would recognize it cannot be true.

Guest's true purpose here should be unmistakeable to everyone (especially after 5 pages of this nonsense). If he really had a point to make about his supposed zionist conspiracy, he made it about a dozen posts ago. No, he is not here to discuss conspiracies. He wants to get banned from the WoD boards, for good. Well, I say gracious mercy is in order. Let's put him out of his misery and grant him his wish.
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Joram's post makes me think this : Joram! Joram! Joram!

Postby Marius the Black on Sat May 01, 2004 12:28 am

.. Join us next week, on Dr Lionheart, as we discuss eating disorders, sexual identity and you guessed, more trolls.

- Marius the Springer
Grand Master Talkshow Host
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