theworldofdreams.com

I agree with Aislin......

Herakles

I've never seen any gaming community quite like this one. On the boards, pretty much anything goes, with very little editing by the staff (that I notice, anyway). But in the game, everyone is supposed to be all friends and family-like. How can anyone expect two completely different "WoDian" atmospheres to exist among the same group of people?

For several months, I played the game without reading these boards, and I enjoyed it a lot more. However, I felt I was missing out on knowing which quests were going on, and what else was happening. Since Chelsea left, I've only been on the game once, and that was to organize all my stuff to give it away. Chelsea found this shard, and that's why I joined it. I don't know if I'll actually quit yet, but I do know I probably won't play again for a while--partly because of Chelsea, but mostly because of my disillusionment (is that a word?) with this shard.

Chelsea and I have been playing a role-playing game for a little over seven years. I've run that game for five years, with Chelsea's help. That game is text-based with no graphics, and that type of play as a whole seems to be in its decline. Right now, we only have about 290 people in it. My point is, we know what it is to run a multi-player game, manage forums, deal with suggestions and complaints, deal with conflicts among players/staff members, etc. We know how it feels to dedicate hours upon hours of our time for the enjoyment of others, and not feel appreciated.

However, I also know how I expect my staff to act and how I expect the players to act. There is no way I can feel any gratitude or respect for any staff member, of any game, who publicly compares one of his players to a crying baby or otherwise insults or belittles him, no matter what that player has done. I wouldn't be surprised to see that from another player, but staff should be above that. I think that's what bothered me most. The staff has greater responsibilities than the players, and fewer liberties with what they say when posting on a staff name. A suggestion (not a complaint) would be to have the staff have two names--one for posting from an official staff position and always polite and professional, and one for posting as a player with personal opinions. I've seen this type of separation work very well elsewhere.

Chelsea and I also know what it's like to be the "oldbies" of a game (though we never called ourselves that) who long for the old days to return. But we learned, eventually, that the old days are gone. It's better to welcome the newbies with open arms, than to constantly compare the present to the past and make the new people feel left out.

I'm not deleting my characters just yet. My husband still plays here. But we've both started on a new shard that seems very promising so far, and I'm still checking others as well.

Other than the Duklain's and my husband, I didn't really have friends on here anyway. Marius and SS, you two are way cool, and I enjoyed what little time I spent with you. Bronwyn, Azalin, Jocilyn, and Aislin, stay sweet.

I'm taking a break from WoD, and yes, it IS because of what was said on the boards.

Farewell for now,
Avyn

P.S. Joram, your preaching about the difference between attacking a viewpoint and attacking a person might be a bit more convincing if you refrained from attacking Celeste and Simon in those same posts. You're right; some of the responsibility of a reader's reaction to a post lies with that reader, but much of it lies with the author. Words are very powerful. A good writer can choose them carefully to elicit the desired reaction from most reasonable people, no matter what the topic. You could still get your message across without dissecting and insulting people, and would probably be more respected for it.

Herakles wrote:I think generally when people say that they are quitting, it bothers me. Now that I've read your post and several others I get to thinking.....why quit? Will that make this place any better? I dont think so. Staying here and trying to make a difference might make this place better.....or perhaps as enjoyable as it once was.
I am willing to try most anything to make this shard enjoyable for me as well as everyone else. Well, anything within reason anyway.
Chelsea, I am asking you to come back and help me along with others to get this shard back to a respectable and fun place to stay.
I am so so sorry for throwing my comments your way when it wasnt deserved. If I could, I would be kicking myself in the butt right now.
Please come back Chelsea, You and your family belong here.
Once again.....I'm sorry.

Herakles

I would like to one up this statement that I made. That would be.....I want this post to go to anyone who has quit this shard but still reads the forums.
We all can work on this being a better shard to play/live in. I personally will read every post with an open mind and try to see it from all points of view.
And I will once again say that I am burying the hatchet and I sincerely do apologize to anyone/everyone that I may have ever offended here. This is not what this shard is about. This is not the person that I am....whether it be here or in real life. I am generally a quiet type of person and have been on here until just recently. Maybe I should have stayed that way. Heh, I wouldnt be posting this right now.
I have always enjoyed chatting with people ingame, even though for the most part I am the quiet type. And this shard used to be like a family. We need to get back there no matter what it takes. But I do know that it will take time. We shouldnt expect it to be rosy when we wake tomorrow morning. This will take a concentrated effort.
So, to everyone who is in the WoD and used to be.....lets get together and make this place what it should be. A Genuine World of Dreams.

Thank You
Herakles.....aka Mark

I agree with Herakles....
~Aislin~

What I find ironic is that there are people who quit the game they enjoy because they don't like what happens on the boards, but then they still haunt the boards and not play in the game. Why not quit the boards and go enjoy the game? I just don't get it.

I agree with Tamla just play the game!


Also even if people disagree on the boards and if it does pass over into the game, there are other people on the shard enough so that if you don't wanna just solo all the time cause you make enemys on the boards there are other people in the game. Find someone thats online that you dont know even and give them a yell see if they want to hunt and maybe you'll make a new friend and a reason to stay. And even if I'm online and anyone wants to hunt Im always willing to go hunt with someone just give me a yell. Basicaly i guess all Im trying to say is if someone upsets you ignore them if someone in your community annoys you do you just get up and move? (what i see as the equivilent of quitting the shard) I don't think that the answer to any of the problems I seem to be reading on the boards, but have yet to experience, is for everyone to get up and quit. Granted every person who does has their reasoning and right to quit but doesn't mean everyone should. This shard is just going to create more problems with the more people we lose with the ability and diversity to solve some of the them. The more the merrier is what someone said to me recently and I think it's something of a theme we should have. We arent going to make things better if everyone quits and isnt willing to just play the game that we all seem to enjoy otherwise we wouldn't be here.


sorry if I've rambled kind of new at posting but had a thought that I think would help.

Have fun, and good hunting to all!

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in the following are MY OPINIONS and mine only. Please be advised.

Atei wrote:Joram, how can you make statements like that given what has happened recently? Didn't you read that Chelsea quit BECAUSE OF THE BOARDS? Didn't you read that Celeste quit BECAUSE OF THE BOARDS?

You know, Atei, I've been posting on msg boards/forums/newsgroups for almost 7 years now and in all that time I haven't seen anyone explain to me logically why you would have to leave UO because you don't like people who post on msg boards. I purposely took the weekend 'off' so I can try to understand the argument behind this and it still doesn't make any sense to me. Let's talk facts for a second here.

Fact: No one is required to read the forums. I know a few players that have been playing here for almost as long as I have and they either never read the boards or very rarely do (say once a month or so). There's a "recent changes" page that tells you pretty much all that's new, and if you miss that, you can bet people in-game are going to be talking about any big changes if there are any. More importantly, only the "Tech Forum" contains any information directly relevant to game mechanics. All the other forums are for asking questions or discussion topics (yup, discussing is right).

Fact: Even if readingsome forums every now and then is recommended, you are not required to make any posts whatsoever. Certainly, I can name a lot of players that refrain from entering any serious discussion or stick to tech issues and quests. If the "opinionated" people of the boards upset you so much, why bother? No one's forcing to read much less reply to their posts. Sounds like Chelsea and Celeste have made up their minds about these people. What is there to argue about?

Fact: Once you have made your point, no one is forced to argue it over with someone. If you know you get your feelings hurt easily, you are the sensitive type that don't like people to argue anything you say, then why put yourself through that experience? 99% of flame wars begin when the person who supposedly feels attacked replies to his "attackers" in a inflammatory way. It's not so much the "opinionated" people of the forums who are just looking for someone to flame, it's those people who have no business doing in a forum replying like hurt lil' drama queens to an attack that doesn't even exist.

I see it SOOOOO often it almost makes me sick. Someone comes to the boards and makes a controversial post. Lots of people offer their opinions (and I gurantee you, those first opinions 99.99999% of the time are calm, non-inflammatory, and logically stated). BUT THEN, Mr. or Mrs. poster decides to react instead of respond to the those other people, and all hell breaks loose. Oh my goodness, some people even threaten to quit because they get into an argument with someone. I don't know about you but I see that as a reactionary, illogical response. That's the kind of reaction I'd expect from a spoiled little child, not a grown adult.

You make these blanket statements about how nobody quits because of the boards and yet the fact is, you're wrong.

Oh I think what happens on the boards influences their decisions, no question about that, but the boards have never made anyone quit. The boards never put a gun to someone's head and said, quit or else I shoot. Let's get real here, people quit because they make a decision to quit. In this I believe I'm right and feel yourself invited to challenge my reasoning. Like I said, the facts are the facts. No one quits because of the boards because the boards have no power to make anyone quit. No one makes a person mad or upset because only that person can choose to get mad or upset.

You can choose to react to my words and reply angrily wanting to be "right. However, you can also choose to read and think about them and see that I'm not lying here. People choose what kind of reaction they will take to external stimulae in the world. It's all about choices, it's not about "he made me do it" or "I did it because this or that." Everyone should to take responsibility for their actions.

You make these blanket statements about how nothing can carry over from the Boards to the Game except hurt feelings, yet we are all humans and we all have feelings.

Atei, you think that I'm not human and I don't have feelings too? Sure my feelings get hurt every now and then. Sometimes someone makes a post so inflammatory I just lose it and want to flame them back (and in two instances, as someone mentioned, I have). Yet, I choose not to be driven by my emotions and feelings and let my brain speak for me. My feelings do not rule my life. I strive to be in control of it. No one can hurt me unless I let them. No one can make me do anything unless I let them. MOREOVER, I realize often times when I think that person has hurt my feelings, and I think rationally about it, I have to concede that person has really not.

In this I find too many people (too many to name here) to be in error. They read someone's respond or opinion, and they immediately ASSUME that was an attack. Or they ASSUME that person is out to the get them. Or they ASSUME he or she is flaming me. If only they thought calmly and rationally they'd realize no such thing is going on. Like I told you, the number of flames that occur on these boards is amazingly small. If you find yourself reacting like a hurt lil' animal to someone's word, I'm sorry to say it but you have no business in these or any other forums (feel free to disagree but you must realize that without reactionary posts no flames would ever occur).

My point was that there is a connection between the Boards and the Game. If you disagree with the idea, where is your proof?

That's kind of a broad statement, isn't it? There's a connection between the moon and the earth. What kind of connection, though? Do people have to quit the game because someone told them off on the boards? Absolutely not. You are assuming too much, Atei, and giving too much credit to the reactionary side of your brain. If someone told you, "you are ugly" would you go and kill yourself and then blame it on the person that insulted you? I know some people that would but then I don't think everything's right with them either. People like that need to solve their self-esteem issues or whatever their problem is.

As for what people are "supposed" to do when posting, who made you the person to set these rules?

Ok then, go ahead and flame everyone and everything. Tell off anyone who "makes" you angry and call everyone names. If that's what you really want but I thought you were asking for LESS flaming, not more.

Who ever said you can't name names and point fingers if you feel justified in doing it?

If you feel justified . . . here we go with the feelings thing again. I'm sorry, Atei, but "feeling" justified doesn't give you the right to do anything. I may "feel" like I have the right to go pop a bullet on someone's head but that doesn't give me the right to do it.

But I digress, I didn't say I had a problem with someone telling me "Joram you are wrong and here is why." (in fact, just a few posts ago I invited anyone who had a problem with me to let me know, go check). Heck, call me a piranha, wolf, or bird of prey if you want, just make sure you are addressing ME and pointing out WHY you are making those accusations.

What I DO have a problem with is people saying "yeah, the boards are full piranhas" or "WoD is full of cliques" but then not saying what makes a certain person part of a clique or a piranha. Attitudes like these generate negative feelings and rancor among players (the very things you are supposedly fighting against). IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SOMEONE GO AHEAD GET IT RESOLVED. If you can't, then forget about it and stop fighting with that person.

I've decided that Celeste is beyond the reach of rational argumentation. I don't reply to her posts anymore. When Simon proved himself to be a Troll beyond reasonable doubt, I stopped replying to him. When I realized Bayn and I could not have a serious conversation without it degenerating into a flame-fest, I stopped arguing with him.

Did I at any point suggested that these people should not be allowed to post or the boards should be censor controlled? Of course not. Whether I like it or not there is such a thing as freedom of speech and as someone who enjoys this freedom I should respect other's people right to it. I would be immensely hypocritical to say whatever I want to say, get involved on all sorts of argument threads, and then be like "oh no, these people argue so much it makes me sick." SHEEEESH, you JUST argued something yourself, don't be such a hypocrite.

I agree you shouldn't post "Joram is a doo-doo head" without explaining that position, but whoever said you couldn't do it? It can and does happen, and when it does, people's feelings get hurt.

Then we agree. You can bet the day I have a problem with you Atei I'll let you know, but I will also give you enough respect to explain to you what I believe is wrong with you that I don't like. Pointing fingers in the air is a sign of cowardice and immaturity in my book. Again, either attack the issues, or attack the person (and expect "hurt feelings" as you say) but don't be rude to forum posters. If you have a problem with someone have the decency to bring your problems to that person and solve it between the two of you. No more "cliques" and "piranhas," please.

You can't have it both ways, Joram. Either they are open forums or they aren't.

I never meant to imply people shouldn't speak their minds. In fact, if it pleases you to make vague accusations and place the blame on "they," then go right ahead. Certainly, no one will be able to stop you. Nevertheless, I seriously doubt it will help your cause. Things like this tend to generate negative feelings among players as much as personal attacks.

If they are open, people will post what they feel and they will attack/defend their positions vigorously, just like you. That's the nature of the beast. I just can't believe you don't see that.

Oh I DARE YOU to prove, quote, or point to a post where I said people should not attack/defend their positions vigoriously. I'd much rather Celeste never posted on these msg boards ever again but God forbid I'd become such a hypocrite to demand that she be silenced (as she would have us be) when I'm as vocal as they are. God forbid, I complain that people argue so much when I'm involved and arguing too. God fobid I complain how forum posters don't let old threads die when I'm right there rekindling the flames and bumping the threads.

You hit it right on the head, Atei. "That is the nature of the beast." I couldn't have said it better myself.

All that being said , I'd like to take the opportunity to apologize to forum posters for the two instances (and any other I might not remember) when I indulged myself in flames exchange. As I said, I do not believe in flaming but I'm only human and like Atei I have feelings and at times I let feelings control my decisions. This is bad, very very bad.

Yet, with that said. I also invite you all to do the same. Atei says the boards are generating bad feelings among people. I say EVERY poster needs to look inside him or herself and place some blame on themselves. Too often have I seen people MISCONSTRUE, REACT, and ASSUME what other people are saying and doing. Next time you feel attacked, THINK before you post. I assure you, things are not always as they seem. And by God, if you have a problem with "Bob," bring it to Bob. Don't lay it on everyone else. This is rude and will not make very popular.

Fact: You can just ignore close minded ijits who don't understand they are acting like a donkey.

*wonders how many people actually read that whole post*
heh, has this gone on long enough yet?

Chelsea, you were the first person here that I can honestly say was my friend. With that I shall miss you dearly. Although I know how you feel about the state of the world today, and the happenings. The world was a truly different place when I joined over a year ago. I was just remembering that the other day.
It seemed like the community was so much closer than it is now.
I beg you to reconsider your stance on leaving this shard becuase I still feel optimistic that it will go back to how it used to be. Or rather pray that it does, and you know me. I don't pray alot. So please try and forgive and forget. You said it best, we have one of the best player bases in the world. I think it is up to us collectivly to try and make a change, and restore The World Of Dreams to its former Glory.

Sincerly
A.D.

Wolfie wrote:*wonders how many people actually read that whole post*
heh, has this gone on long enough yet?

Not me, and yup.

Let's all just be as nice to each other here as we are in-game...ok?

Nia Atei wrote:Let's all just be as nice to each other here as we are in-game...ok?

Amen Nia......

Herakles

It's not the same without you all . Wish you would come home

~Bronwyn~

I wish I had asked for a keepsake from them, like a named item or something