theworldofdreams.com

I would gladly join a dungeon crawl, Marius. My schedule has been crazy lately though, so I can't commit to a time. If I'm online though when you have it, please message me!

I would be happy to go on a dungeon crawl also... but not with Marius. Nor with Janus. Why don't you tell us why you remade yourself Marius?

And, ok Chelsea, good points. I hope you weren't thinking of me when you said "snobblshly arrogant and rude", but there it is. I will try not to fall into that trap in the future.

We have more than one problem here lately.

Some of it is a purely technical problem: horrible lag.

Some of it has been a leave-taking of valued old-timers. They were valued because of their leadership, their skill, and their friendliness. And... I have to say... some old-timers have not stepped up to the plate and assumed the roles of Teacher and Leader that we crave. I fall into that category somewhat, and so share the blame....

However, some of it has been because we have had a few invideous scoundrels amongsts us. Yes--I mean we have had some people "playing" here with the intent to cause strife, to cause division. These folk might say they are "roleplaying" evil characters. Well, I will come right out and say that I do not trust these people. I think your inner nature shows in the characters you choose to create and how you behave while playing them.

Ok. So. The guantlet is thrown down.

Yes, part of the appeal of these games is the virtual loot. It is "virtual" because it doesn't really exist. It is imaginary. It is digital. Sorry if that is a let-down to any of you. But it is real in this sense: we earn it. We spend time in the virtual/digital world earning what we have. And we enjoy it!

And those that seek to pervert this experience, that seek to twist it into something for their own wierd, mental, virtual benefit?!? I am without sympathy for them.

-Augur

Partly the reason I chose to create "Janus" was to avoid the stigma that goes with playing a character many people found abrasive, by assuming that the player must be so - because no one ever plays a personality outside their own, do they?

I played Marius because I wanted to be the Mr. Burns of the WoD world, the sinister megalomaniac who is, ultimately, a pathetic little weenie. I enjoy playing Marius, I still do, and will continue to do so well into the future.

While I well consider Marius an 'evil' character, I used discretion into how and when this 'evil' was applied. For instance, topics that I felt strongly about were never brought up without reasonable justification, nor did I insult peoply or make derogatory comments, torment people for pleasure, attempt to ruin people's enjoyment of WoD by attempting to kill them (in-game, obviously), be disruptive, rude or ignorant, or do anything that was otherwise contrary to the rules of WoD. I created Marius to allow other players to be the heroes, to have someone to reflect against and say "At least I'm not Marius!"

I created a new character, Janus, because I wanted to enjoy the game in a different light. It may be surprising, but there is a real person behind these words, with feelings and emotions. Enough abuse and intolerance of Marius made the game undesirable to play, and did not do wonders for myself overall. So, in that light I acquiesed, deciding that if Marius was such a 'burden' to the good people of WoD, I would stop playing that character, and move on to a new one. That way, I figured I would be given a chance to prove that while as a player, I am no less than everyone else, I just have characters that are different.

I think your inner nature shows in the characters you choose to create and how you behave while playing them

Obviously however, I am only to be judged upon the character Marius. Ergo, I am a villanous scoundrel not deserved of basic rights, like conversation and friendship and enjoyment of the game from a different perspective.

Why don't you tell us why you remade yourself Marius?

I didn't remake 'myself'. I am not Marius. Marius is a collection of pixels on a screen and a good roleplaying idea.

Let me reiterate: I am not Marius.

I created a new character to appease those who thought the world would be better without Marius. Those who said 'we don't like him, he's not good for WoD.' But now, I have made such a character, and tried my hardest to show that while I might play an evil character, I can play a good one, just as well.

When I see a death cry when I'm online, I've sent out a 'need help?' message, and many times, I've gone to the rescue. I've helped out people how I can, and I've been friendly and polite to everyone I've met. By saying this, I don't claim to be any better than anyone else who does this, as I owe my life to numerous people, and probably a lot of apologies to others . However, the point of the matter is that I am playing a character who need not be judged in Marius' shadow.

I've made numerous friends, but I won't mention their names in case they'd rather not be involved (or attributed to) my affairs. All I can say to those people, who know who they are, is thankyou for not judging me for who I play, but rather what I am.

In the spirit of WoD, I've tried to facilitate fun and enjoyment for other players, as well as myself. Playing Marius, I found, was vastly amusing, and rarely anything I said 'in-character' actually was sincere. But, humour only stretches so far, and thus Marius leaves for a time, to provide for those I was inadvertantly upsetting. I sincerely apologise, because I never wanted

to cause strife, to cause division.

-M

I'm sure by now you've noticed I'm a big discussion person. Rather than sit back idly and play a game that requires the participation of others and ignore situations, I'd like to be made aware of how others think as well as let them know my thoughts on the game. Most of you are probably tired of my endless ramblings but I'll make no apologies. The boards are for open discussion of thoughts, feelings and information on the game that we all make up. Without all of us, there would be a game but it would be solitary and devoid of what makes the World of Dreams the World of Dreams. With this being said I will delve into my next "novel" of questions and personal opinions.

As I've stated, I was part of a game for many years. I, myself, considered myself a big dog at the end. I was totally floored when I noticed that the last few waves of "Newbies" didn't bow down and accept that I had wisdom beyond theirs. I was digested that, rather than come to me or others of my prestige, they blundered on mindlessly making mistake after mistake. I was offended that they didn't take time to find out the history of the game nor respect me, nor the other old timers for having achieved so much more than they could. I was a snob. I didn't realize this at the time. I thought I was perfectly justified in having these feelings. The game was being taken over by those who preferred mindless acts of barbarism as opposed to the old style of playing which required thought, planning and a good story line to back up any actions you did as a character. I grew disgusted with the game and left. I'm here now and the shoe is on the other foot. I consider myself fortunate and much more wise now for having played in two wonderful forums where I have learned valuable lessons.

Do I respect the older players? I certainly do. Do I value their wisdom? Without a doubt. Have I enjoyed my encounters with the older players in WoD? Absolutely. Do I need a teacher or a leader? ..... No. What I need or crave is a person who knows the history of the game. A person who doesn't mind taking the time to answer my vast number of questions...when I ask. A person who can clearly see that I'm doing something wrong and stop a moment to take the time to tell me, in a respectful manner, "You know, that would work better if you did this..." That's what we all need and I can honestly say, that is NOT lacking in WoD. But to continue to think that the older players should step up and lead the rest of us is slightly insulting. We didn't join an army. We joined to play a game and have fun. Those of us who are lasting additions to the game will catch on to the fact that we need a bit of guidance here and there and we will continue to respect the Game Knowledge Hierarchy but I can assure you, I will never, ever consider myself a peasant among nobles. I have a vast amount of respect for myself and will not let anyone speak condescendingly to me or make me feel as if I am less than they are. This is not a game thing, it's a me thing.

As for your opinions on not joining the dungeon crawl or your personal opinions on Marius, I really can't say I understand them. I've found him to be quite a very nice person with whom I've made friends with. You pretty much opened a can of worms then walked away and left the rest of us staring at the squirming things crawling out. I'm sure, given your insight and obvious intelligence, you have your reasons for the way you feel and I'll not disrespect that nor tread in that area. It's none of my business. But I do have to defend one tiny thing. I'm a role player. A serious one. I have very rarely role played on WoD because it's not the norm. Chelsea's comments and observations are usually my own. Scary, eh? And yes, I'm a nut case. I have to disagree with your comment that just because someone plays a villainous character that they probably have deeper issues or a lack of morals. Role players choose characteristics for their creation and try to adhere to them. I could easily play an evil char although it's not in MY nature to be that way. I could easily have any of my characters be hated by those on WoD but it's not because I'm a bad person, it's because I'm a darn good role player. I know how to separate myself from my creations. I know how play something I'm not and that takes talent. It's not some warped and twisted form of entertainment, it's simply a game and some of us are very good at it. My dear husband, Thomas, is absolutely amazing at playing an indifferent character totally devoid of emotions and feelings. There was a point in time where I grew so disgusted with his character, I set out to have my own kill his. Is he that way in real life? Absolutely not. He's the most loving man I have ever encountered. He continually plies me with affection and attention. If he were to play an evil character here, would that make him a bad person? Uhh...no. A good evil role player makes you disgusted with them. They make you hate them. That's their job. To make a character that is not liked. If you feeling negative emotions toward that character every time you see it, he/she is doing a darn fine job!

There's something most of you are forgetting here...if you wanted to play the World of Dreams as yourselves, why didn't you name your characters Tom Brown? Joe Smith? Bob Green? Your own name? Because...you wanted to play something else. You wanted to create a CHARACTER. You have created characters and then gone about and played them as yourselves. There's not a thing in the world wrong with that...except...those of us who ARE playing characters are judged by our character's actions. I do not believe Marius was trying to create strife. I think he was playing his character. The problem he encountered, and now knows is, WoD isn't a role playing shard. But there are those of us out here who would love to role play again. Perhaps those of us who enjoy role playing should get together and do it as a group so we won't confuse or bother the rest of the gamers. Not everyone wants to be part of something like that and that is perfectly understandable.

Seems like as good a spot as any to reveal some information that some may not know so far...

I think your inner nature shows in the characters you choose to create and how you behave while playing them

I disagree. Role-playing an evil character can be a challenge, and quite enjoyable. My main character is Seon MacRae, Order Guard. I play him as a goodie-goodie paladin, loyal to the virtues.

However, most players don't know that I also play Avagdu (necromancer) and Kaishi (assassin). I've worked really hard to keep the characters separate, since I'm role-playing them as individuals that Seon would not associate with normally, but this seemed like a good time to bring them up.

I would like to think that my inner nature more closely matches that of the character Seon MacRae, but that does not mean I can't role-play an arrogant, evil character.

Although neither of my characters quite approach the (I assume role-played) arrogance and evilness of Marius , their behavior in game certainly doesn't match with Seon.

Edit: wonder how that happened - it quoted my message when I replied. Must have clicked the wrong button.

I'm not a truly hard-core role-player, but I can appreciate people who do, and enjoy dabbling in it myself. The character a player portrays often has very little to do with their true nature.

Marius the Black wrote: I sincerely apologise, because I never wanted to cause strife, to cause division.

-M

I don't think you should be apologizing for organizing a hunt for people who need or want to raise capital, or for wanting to do so yourself. The people who crapped on you for doing so forget that houses, skills and items don't come free or cheap. Obtaining these things is a feature of the game people.

Ignore them, they forget themselves at times and are way out of line here. Please post a time; I'd like to come on your hunt.

Couldn't finish - had to go to a meeting...

As background for the other characters I play...

Kaishi is played as a very reclusive character. She is somewhat self-centered and very much self-reliant. She prefers to depend on her poisoned blade rather than allies in a battle.

Avagdu is played as a distracted, slightly arrogant intellect, newly dabbling in the dark arts. He met Marius as a young necromancer, and has somewhat folowed in his footsteps since then (uh oh, there goes Marius' ego ), minus the grand plans for world domination.

Neither of these characters shares the tower or resources with Seon. As Seon is played, he wouldn't welcome such virtueless individuals into his home (role-played, nobody needs to get their knickers in a twist ).

Oh, and back on topic, I'd gladly help in a hunt with Avagdu or Kaishi - they need to save up for a hideout of their own. If something is scheduled, I'll make an effort to come.

I think it's a sad thing that someone in WoD feels that they must stop playing one of their characters because of a few people who can't tell the difference between a character and a player, or who don't realize that a good person can play a bad character and still be a good person. Personally, I very much enjoy reading Marius' posts about plotting to take over the world. The way he does it is not at all threatening, but rather humorous, and very entertaining to read. In a game where PvP is not allowed, how much of a threat can a villian really be, anyway?

I also played the game Chelsea mentioned. We played that game for close to seven years. As she said, a few years ago, we became the "oldbies"--the ones who knew all the history of the game, the ones who knew the best strategy to use when going up against the toughest villian or how best to make an alliance with other lands. We watched as many of our friends left the game for one reason or another, and new people came in to take their places.

As time passed, we grew more and more frustrated with the new players. Some of us tried different things to try to keep the community exactly the way it was six years ago. Mainly, we tried to teach the new players to be like us, by acting like the people who taught us and befriending the people who "conformed" to our playstyle. There are a hundred reasons why this didn't work, and why it could never work.

Eventually, I came to realize that every community changes, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. With each person that leaves, part of the personality of the community leaves. Likewise, with each new person that comes in, a new trait of the community's personality evolves. Nobody can stop that from happening. Even if you kept the same people and didn't let in any new ones, people still grow. They develop different ideas, play styles, etc.


So now, as Chelsea said, I'm on the other side of that oldbie/newbie wall. Please, don't try to teach me to be like you. I don't want you to hand all your wisdom to me. I want to explore the game and learn for myself, through experience, the things you would teach me through words. That's the fun part of the game.

As far as someone having to be a bad person to play a bad character, well, I guess I'm a bad person then. My old character on the other game was very bad. She had people killed for as little as smarting off to her in public. She allied with the worst villian in the world just to save her own neck. She ordered the assassinations of entire families of people who had wronged her. She personally killed two of her own sons for perceived betrayal. On the other hand, I've also played a few characters who were completely subserviant; one who was the epitome of goodness; and one who spooked at her own shadow and was scared to death of the "creepy vampires".

The people who caused the worst problems in that game, the ones who were to be avoided at all costs, were the ones that could not tell the difference between a player and a character. These people were offended personally by something that some other character may have done to their character. They were also usually very insecure, very easily offended, and very, very clingy.

I think villians are one of the most difficult characters to play well, and I admire every one I see that is played well. I know quite a few people who played excellent villians, who quit playing them for exactly the same reason Marius said he would quit playing his. I think it's a real shame that talent such as that must be hidden because someone else has a problem with distinguishing the player from the character.

Whether someone role-plays here or not, everyone should have some measure of courtesy and respect for all of the other players here, regardless of whether they agree with the others' playstyles.

Marius, I'm sorry your thread got so off topic. I would still very much like to hunt with you on your dungeon adventure. I play an archer/tank.

Avyn

Avyn Asu wrote:I think it's a sad thing that someone in WoD feels that they must stop playing one of their characters because of a few people who can't tell the difference between a character and a player, or who don't realize that a good person can play a bad character and still be a good person. Personally, I very much enjoy reading Marius' posts about plotting to take over the world. The way he does it is not at all threatening, but rather humorous, and very entertaining to read. In a game where PvP is not allowed, how much of a threat can a villian really be, anyway?

Just a quick comment on this. There was a time when playing an evil character was not against the rules per say but something not done, from the monaual:

9. Evil Characters. We do not need any more evil characters than we already have. We have monsters galore who have intelligence. There is the Evil Lord Gizash (or is he still evil?). We are here to help one another in a common goal to rid the lands of the evils within.

As to the hunt originally proposed in the thread, I will most likly make an effort to attend.

http://uo.stratics.com/content/darkside/evilroleplay/evil_roleplay.shtml

There is a lot more to being a villian in Ultima Online than just doing things that lower your karma.

It is perfectly acceptable for one to have 'the Vile' or 'the Unsavoury' attached to their name, through doing (generally) random acts of violence against innocent folk, killing them for 'karma loss', calling upon powers dark and corrupt, but it is not acceptable for a person to play a character who is 'evil'? Because, by definition this character is not evil if he kills townsfolk to gain negative karma - that's just what you do.

Abject hypocracy.

I can't possibly believe any justification for killing the townsfolk to get a bad reputation is perfectly acceptable, while acting in an evil manner is intolerable. That slaughtering denizens of the underworld by poisoning them, calling up corpses or slaughtering them with disease is alright, but actually evolving a character's personality, which is evil, is unacceptable.

Another point to make mention of is; you're not supposed to like Marius, but as a character. The whole point of playing a villian is to be hated and growled at by uptight-holy types. By all means, scorn him and challenge his words, declare him enemy of the Crown. That's fine. But it's when you attack the player when it's not fun anymore. And those that don't role-play shouldn't have a problem with Marius -I generally don't role play him to people who are just playing the game normally.

I've actually been hoping that someone would oppose me (in a character-versus-character way), so Marius could actually have something to plot about. But no one did- people decided that I was a reckless player who just wanted to cause grief to other players.

Apparently, if I want to be "evil", I should just go out and kill townsfolk, and become Vile.

It is important to remember that I am not arguing against this practice, I am arguing for my own case. I have nothing against people who just want to play the game, and think that having 'the Vile' attached to their name is a cool thing to do. That's fine with me. But to argue that role-playing evil is an insufferable stigma, but simply playing evil for karma is not, is unfair by any sense of reasoning.

One of the most important factors in playing an evil character is the definition of evil. I chose dictionary.com's definition as a base;

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Evil

e·vil

Morally bad or wrong; Causing ruin, injury, or pain.

I do not want to have a definition war. There are as many interpretations of evil as there are people in the world. And I respect that everyone has an interpretation that is valid and true. However, I am using the definition above as a point of argument, nothing more.

Marius was evil because he wanted to rule Britannia. He didn't want the best magic items in all possible existence, but simply used them as tools to better himself and achieve his purposes. Marius was evil, but any time someone took personal offence to his words, he apologised and offered to make amends. Marius was evil, but he never attempted to ruin the enjoyment of anyone's game, by killing people or abusing them, and so on. Marius was evil, but he offered the Upstart Guild his advice on certain matters, and offered them selections from his library. Marius was evil, but he loved conversation and could talk for hours, rather than tromp around a dungeon. He gave out advice to new players, offered them items, and went out on rescues.

Laephis: [Marius] may be a megalomaniac, but at least he's honest.

Marius was evil, but he wasn't bad. If he was, I imagine that I would have been contacted by the Administration and told to cease and desist, more or less.

Just a quick comment on this. There was a time when playing an evil character was not against the rules per say but something not done, from the monaual:

Quote:
9. Evil Characters. We do not need any more evil characters than we already have. We have monsters galore who have intelligence. There is the Evil Lord Gizash (or is he still evil?). We are here to help one another in a common goal to rid the lands of the evils within.

What is important here is to remember that Marius believes he is ridding the lands of evil; by ruling the land, he thinks there will be some sort of Age of Enlightenment. Of course, he is wrong, but that's where the whole redemption factor comes in. Anyway, the point to be made here that evil in motivation does not necessarily equate to evil in practice. Marius may well (and very often) help out people he deems 'useful' to his overthrowing the Kingdom, and is not above making alliances - because when you're the evil Baron, you need evil Lords you can trust.

I could wax dilettante further, but there's really no need.

Do not hate Marius as a player. He is a character.

-M

In-character, of course, Seon despises Marius for his attitude. (tinged with Justice and Compassion, of course - there's always a chance Marius will turn from his wicked ways and find redemption) The (in-character) behaviors Seon has observed from Marius are in opposition to many of the virtues he holds dear. The only thing Seon can admire in Marius is the pursuit and preservation of knowledge.

On the other hand, Avagdu (remember, same player) admires Marius.

Personally, I have no problem with the person behind Marius. When I'm playing Seon, I'll oppose and scorn you (good-naturedly, of course). When I'm playing Avagdu, expect to have a little acolyte bugging you.

Ack! I have multiple personalities!!

Azzo Ranar wrote:And on top of it all, I give awesome "wuggle"

What is a "wuggle"?

I enjoy playing with your characters, Seon. They're entertaining and role-played well. There's talk at the moment about gathering those who want to seriously role-play their characters in WoD, and forming some sort of collective, so that the role-players can keep away from those who don't, to avoid further confusion and upsetting people.

It is my opinion that this would be a good idea, because that would allow everyone to be happy. Personally, I'd enjoy hanging out with the role-players, which would allow me to play as Marius without any angst from less enthusiastic types.

I have no idea what kind of collective the RP group would be, but I imagine it would be a fairly simple concept, with a central location, for ease of reference. For example, the RP collective might be 'citizens of Skara Brae' and focus themselves on that area. I was thinking that somewhere not particularly used by most players (read: Brit Bank) would be ideal, just to keep both factions happy.

I'll post more about this on a new thread after I've had a bit of a think about it. Feel free to include any comments here about what you think.

-M

Marius, the idea of serious roleplayers grouping up into a community together is one we have visited several times in the history of WoD. I have to say at the outset that I personally do not like that idea. One of the characteristics of WoD that we try to maintain from one generation to the next is that of a single community, not several. I know that is not your intent and you see the two blending, but my experience tells me that isn't the way it works out. We've always had folks on WoD who love roleplay and some who don't and our enduring approach has been for them to learn how to live with each other. I've seen that from both sides.
Roleplaying evil IS very hard. It is a legitimate thing to do in the game. It is tricky. Anyone who decides to take on that challenge needs to have a thick skin, because if they understand people at all, they know some folks- perfectly good folks just like them- won't understand it and won't like it. I don't fully understand it myself. I like playing a "naughty" guy like Smudge or a "grumpy" guy like Pinkwater, but real "evil" is a rare thing, even among the worst criminals. How serious a roleplay is playing someone evil in a way that doesn't hurt or offend anyone? Still, if you have the desire, go for it.
Roleplay of all kinds takes patience. So does earning respect of folks in this game. There have always been players in WoD who are otherwise very nice folks who live their whole in-game lives around their lists of "folks I will hunt with" and "folks I won't hunt with." I don't get that either, although sometimes "won't hunt with" means "has given me reason not to trust them." Again, trust must be earned, and it is difficult to regain when lost.
We have, in the past, had folks in the WoD who were not worthy of our trust or our respect. In some cases, they skated along for some time, either staying just inside the rules or avoiding being pinned down on minor infractions. Older players have seen this happen and so might be a bit paranoid when they see familiar patterns of behavior that in the past have concealed attitudes contrary to the spirit of WoD. You see, the few "grief players" or jerks who have found there way into our world usually hide behind "roleplay of evil" as their excuse for bad behavior. At first, they are usually able to stick to that, but eventually it turns out that the flaws of the character are just reflections of flaws of the player. Now, of course not all evil roleplayers are undesirable players. Some of the finest folks I have known in the game have dabbled in evil roleplay- but the history has been strong enough to make some folks suspicious.
Anyway, I encourage the same thing I always do. Help the guy you see on the screen have fun. It is physically impossible for you to do that and not have fun yourself.