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amen joram. aww joram and drocket needs to get along otherwise ill have to step in a beat you both up

Love Elwen Dragonfire

Elwen Dragonfire wrote:amen joram. aww joram and drocket needs to get along otherwise ill have to step in a beat you both up

Love Elwen Dragonfire

I'll mix up a brake fluid/chlorox cocktail for 'em. That'll do the job!

lol sounds good to me. So you two you gunna cool it or are me and bayn gunna have to fix you

They were fixed long ago, I have the vet bill here. (couldn't resist the punch line)
FYI, I do not support Lyl's conspiracy, but I will say that Sharon is a criminal. It is history not conjecture, that he did the things posted. Do I believe Zionists are behind every door and in the shadows? probly but then look what else is there with them. Sharon and Isreal are neither of interest to me nor do I care if suicide bombers blow up every man woman and child living in Isreal. If you stick your finger in an ant pile you get bit, Sharon stuck his in Palestine, the Bush Crime Syndicate stuck theirs in middle east policy. And due to that fact we have lots of new friends pissed off at us because we back Isreal in a cause as unjust as ours in Iraq. I lost 2 very dear friends so far in this lil Vietnam II, and I will say I would love to know why the turnip thinks we left Saigon. You can not fight the people, the army yes but not the people.

If it is indeed "our old friend" Lyl, why doesn't he log in and post?

I seemed to have fixed my browser. Hurrah.

Drocket, did you get my message via Wood?

-M

Drocket wrote:

The fact that their boss also up and disappeared leaving a hundred customers' belongings in locked storage is odd.

Someone taking the money and running never happens.

So I guess the bomb sniffing dog's reaction, months in solitary confinement, box cutters and $4000 cash are just yet another coincidence?

Sorta like how there wasn't a single Israeli killed in the WTC on 9-11 (besides any that were on the planes.)

Why were the Zionist terrorists caught red handed in Mexico released when they were obviously up to no good? Someone with a lot of power pulling strings I think.

Proof that they were 'caught red handed'?

First off here is the Mexican Dept of Justice's offical report of the suspects' release:
http://www.pgr.gob.mx/cmsocial/bol01/oct/b69701.html
It confirms the Israeli nationality of one of the suspects and says he was in violation for secretly entering the country illegally. It also says that the other suspect was in possession of a 9mm gun but that he had a permit (guns are illegal to citizens and very hard to get in Mexico).

A much different story was apparently reported for a few days by Diario de Mexico, La Cronica de Hoy (among other periodicals) before inexplicably being dropped without a retraction. Unfortunatly their online archives dont go back to 2001.

You can read an archive of Diario de Mexico's web pdf from the day after:
http://www.rense.com/general17/primera.pdf_1.pdf
It claims that they had grenades, guns and explosives. Or do you claim its a forgery?

NOTIMEX, an official Mexican news source apparently reported a partly different version, but again their archives don't go back that far. Apparently people were talking about that report on Indymedia in the following days though:
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/im ... 00051.html

Here is an overview of their release from, unfortunatly, an odd anti-zionist source:
http://aztlan.net/blowup.htm

I guess for hard proof of the grenades and explosives you'd need to obtain a physical copy of those main newspapers from a library, or confirmation from Mexican witnesses.

Nevertheless its very odd for these people to have infiltrated Mexico's Congress building with arms of any sort.

Ever heard of a taxi? People sophisticated enough to pull off that operation would surely consider using a taxi to avoid leaving clues and wasting resources. Unless they wanted to make it look like some else did it that is.

They were going to blow themselves up. Why exactly should they worry about their car?

If Bin Ladin actually had a secret US terror network its unlikely they decided to throw it all away and all commit suicide together. Rather the network would assist the hijackers and remain in place to execute future attacks.

Note that no actual Al Queda operatives have been caught in the US, while many Israelis have been caught in suspicious behavior.

As for leaving clues, again, they WANT people to know who they are and what they did.

You say that and yet Bin Ladin denied involvement. And why didn't the hijackers simply mail press releases to news sources before boarding the planes if they WANT credit? Why just leave little clues when you have a message so important you're willing to die for it?

By definition terrorism is using violence to coerce society/policy.

Its hard to coerce people to do something when they don't know what it is that they're supposed to do.

Oh but we do know what we are supposed to do. Did you ever see that overhyped blockbuster Hollywood movie Independance Day?

When the inhuman aliens blow up the White House Will Smith is supposed to fly his jet and destroy all the aliens.

If you consider history, terrorism is more effective at generating sympathy for the victim than admiration for the aggressor. Who benefited most from the aftermath of 9-11? Surely not Arabs.

Actually, its worked out pretty well for them, I think. After the US invaded Afganistan looking for Bin Laden, the fundimentalists made a lot of progress pushing Middle-Eastern governments towards their own viewpoints. Now that Hussein is out of the way, they're in an even better position to control the region.

Are you talking about Islamicists or Arabs in general?

As far as Saudi Arabia the unstability in the region has set off a rash of terrorism:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl? ... 21/1538221
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/ ... 8313.shtml
Though maybe that is good for them if they get awarded huge reconstruction grants...

Recently the has been a noticable increase in negative press about Saudi Arabia in the US media. I don't think that is a good sign for their future, but time will tell.

Ok, so perhaps they were Israeli spies. And yes, of course Israel has spies - every government does, in some way, shape or form. That doesn't mean that they were up to anything 'wrong', or anti-US or anything. Who knows, maybe they were on a mission to infiltrate Al-Qaeda.

Why would Israelis want to stop Al Queda when Al Queda has done more than anyone to get the US to fight Israel's enemies?

at the very least he should never have been president, but I don't think you give him enough credit. But even if he was completely brain dead all the very intelligent people with him must have known what was going on.

They weren't with him. They figured he could handle reading a story about a goat to children by himself.

Hello? George Bush is Commander-in-Chief of the greatest military power in the world. Though Cheney wasn't with him physically you can be sure he had a full entourage of staff and secret service who all had pagers or cell phones. I feel confident Bush knew the first collision was a terrorist attack and deliberatly stalled.
This essay pieces together all the numerous (and often inconsistent) accounts of Bush's actions on 9-11 taken from major US news sources.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/time ... ngday.html

That is not what the WTC construction manager said.

And that's not what the original designer of the WTC says:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Dail ... 20912.html

The American Society of Civil Engineers report on the collapse essentially said that they don't think its even POSSIBLE to design a building that could have survived the event, and that they're in fact not sure how they managed to remain standing so long:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... ge=printer

That article completely fails to mention WTC-7. WTC-7 imploded perfectly on 9-11 and was never even hit by a plane.

Silverstien himself (more on him in a second) slipped that WTC-7 was pulled In a September 2002 PBS documentary called 'America Rebuilds.' Silverstein states, in reference to World Trade Center Building 7, "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." Listen to Dan Rather:
http://911.justiceforwoody.org/videos/d ... _7_cbs.mpg
How could they pull it if it wasn't already rigged though?


As for the WTC 1&2, even jet fuel combustion is limited by oxygen supply. Had the fire been hot enough to melt steel beams (even fires that have burned for days have never done so) it would have melted them unevenly (there was a gaping hole in only one side of each tower.) Thus the towers and WTC-7 would have toppled over. Instead we a collapse resembling a contained, controlled, professional demolision implosion.
But don't ask me listen to these guys:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... ehouse.mpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... esses.html

Regardless of how it collapsed, such an event is unprecedented and should have been studied to understand and prevent such occurances. But investigators were blocked, and evidence quickly destroyed.

Another interesting question: If you're going to blow up the building, why would you set it to so neatly implode? Wouldn't it have been a lot more damaging and impressive if they had toppled over sideways? And if that's not enough, it would have helped prevented the sort of suspicion that you have about the way it collapsed.

But you see the conspirators weren't trying to cause damage for damage's sake, they only needed to cause terror and reap big bucks.

Larry Silverstein had only leased and insured the WTC shortly before 9-11, not all of New York. He stands to collect billions of dollars of profit from insurance.

By the way, Silverstein has held a leadership position with United Jewish Appeal (UJA), a billion dollar Zionist “charityâ€

Drocket wrote:

Audio recordings of the last minutes of fire fighters are classified. Possibly because they had the fire under control and the fire wasn't responsible for the collapse?

Or perhaps because it would be a tad gruesome to release audio takes of several hundred/thousand people being smooshed.

Lets listen to the gruesome footage and find out:
http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/firefighters.htm
Check this:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... .html#ref1
And this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/s ... 07,00.html

Jet fuel -- somewhat similar to common kerosene and not much different than charcoal lighter fluid -- burns at roughly 875 degrees. Whether a little or a lot of fuel is burned, it still burns at roughly the same temperature.

Hardened steel such as that used in the WTC beams and girders needs temperatures of approximately TWENTY-EIGHT HUNDRED (2,800) degrees to actually melt, and temperatures approaching 2,000 degrees to turn bright red and soften.

Anonymous wrote:So I guess the bomb sniffing dog's reaction

Believe it or not, bomb (and drug) sniffing dogs aren't actually all that reliable.

months in solitary confinement

Because the police think someone is guilty, they must be?

box cutters

Didn't you say it was a moving van?

$4000 cash are just yet another coincidence?

$4000 really isn't all that much. Maybe it was payday.

Sorta like how there wasn't a single Israeli killed in the WTC on 9-11 (besides any that were on the planes.)

There's an old saying that I think has some relevance: 'Two people can keep a secret, as long as one of them is dead.' Your theory requires the involvement of ridiculous numbers of people. Not even self-selected people who MIGHT keep a secret: Random Israelis that happened to have a job in the WTC. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to keep the whole thing a secret, despite all their friends getting blowed up, aye?

Nevertheless its very odd for these people to have infiltrated Mexico's Congress building with arms of any sort.

Um, I guess I should have specified English links

If Bin Ladin actually had a secret US terror network its unlikely they decided to throw it all away and all commit suicide together. Rather the network would assist the hijackers and remain in place to execute future attacks.

If the car was in the name of one of the hijackers, keeping it would only make it easier to track down accomplices.

You say that and yet Bin Ladin denied involvement.

As far as I know, this was only mentioned on Sept. 11 itself, and at that point, the news networks were in such a frenzy that they were essentially spouting things at random, so its hard to give the claim much credit. Since then, Bin Laden has claimed responsibility several times.

And why didn't the hijackers simply mail press releases to news sources before boarding the planes if they WANT credit? Why just leave little clues when you have a message so important you're willing to die for it?

Bin Laden is the spokesperson, and he's had more than a few things to say about it.

Oh but we do know what we are supposed to do. Did you ever see that overhyped blockbuster Hollywood movie Independance Day?

When the inhuman aliens blow up the White House Will Smith is supposed to fly his jet and destroy all the aliens.

What?

Why would Israelis want to stop Al Queda when Al Queda has done more than anyone to get the US to fight Israel's enemies?

Stop being stupid.

Hello? George Bush is Commander-in-Chief of the greatest military power in the world. Though Cheney wasn't with him physically you can be sure he had a full entourage of staff and secret service who all had pagers or cell phones. I feel confident Bush knew the first collision was a terrorist attack and deliberatly stalled.

Why? The fact that he took so long to respond just makes him look stupid and ineffective. If the whole plot was known in advance, it would have been quite easy to have him respond in a far more effective and politically-positive way and still accomplish all the goals they were after.

That article completely fails to mention WTC-7. WTC-7 imploded perfectly on 9-11 and was never even hit by a plane.

It was, however, hit by massive amounts of debris.

Silverstien himself (more on him in a second) slipped that WTC-7 was pulled In a September 2002 PBS documentary called 'America Rebuilds.' Silverstein states, in reference to World Trade Center Building 7, "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, "We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

Your interpretation of that statement doesn't even make any sense (let alone why he would say it in public.) A far more rational explaination for what he was saying is that they decided to <b>pull back</b>, after which the building collapsed.

Had the fire been hot enough to melt steel beams

It didn't melt them. Hot metal has different structural properties than cold metal, the key one being that its much weaker.

But you see the conspirators weren't trying to cause damage for damage's sake, they only needed to cause terror and reap big bucks.

And additional damage wouldn't have caused more terror?

Drocket wrote:Ok, I have a bit more free time, so I'll rip apart another part of your conspiracy theory...

"Ringleader" Mohammed Atta described as timid, shy, goody-two-shoes mama's boy by his German ex-roommates. Having lost his passport he was an easy
victim for identity theft.

Though Atta spoke German, the person who enrolled in flight school in his name was unable to respond to a trainer's German small talk.

Atta's devastated, affluent parents claim the recieved a phone call from Atta on Sept 12. So what happened to the real Mohammed Atta? To quote his grief stricken father: "Ask Mossad!".

You asked me why I dislike conspiracy theories? The above is pretty much the reason: Conspiracy theories invariable rely on the conspiracists being idiot-savants. They successfully pull off horribly complicated and sophisticated actions, then make massive, truly stupid mistakes on everything else.

Just think about the series of events you've outlined above. They stole Atta's passport several years in advance. Then, while he was still living, they enroled a fake Atta in a flight school. That's rife with problems right there: It would certainly be a bad blow to the conspiracy if the real Atta would happen to, say, buy a car in Montana on the day he's supposedly in flight school in Florida. Either way, though, there's going to be records of where the real Atta was, whether he was attending school or had a job, and people are going to know him. Even if you say that he was kidnapped to prevent these sort of problems, then how did he manage to make a phonecall on the 12th? Surely they would have killed him on the 11th.

The whole scenario simply doesn't make sense. How hard would it have been for the conspiracists to simply find 20 single Arabs a few months before 9-11, blow their brains out, then steal their passports off their corpses? Of considering that the conspiracists supposedly have control of the US government, how hard would it be to sneak someone in to Immigration and print out some fake passports? That way, you can make up any sort of background for them you want and not have to worry about reality contradicting it. You don't even have to worry about people figuring out that the background is fake: you can just say that Al-Qaeda must have set it up to help them get into the country.

It simply requires WAY too large of a leap of faith to believe the conspiracy theory version of events.

You question why someone would use Atta's identity while he was still alive, but fail to consider that an identity dies when the person dies. Wouldn't Atta's parents, friends and aquaintences notice him disappear. That article before described a close relationship between Atta and his mother.

If police are investigating a missing or dead person anyone trying to impersonating him or using his credit cards will draw attention and thus runs the risk of being exposed.

How would Atta ever notice he was being impersonated in a flight school (paid for with cash) if he wasn't actually training to be a pilot?

If any honest FBI tries to look at his records after the fact, they just get threatened or fired.

Why isn't there footage of the accused hijackers in airport terminals the planes left from? Why are many of them still alive?

Considering how much demand their was for evidence linking 9-11 to Al Queda and the supposedly know identity of the hijackers, why did Besh had to fall back on some completly unconvicing contrivance of a confession tape?

Anonymous wrote:You question why someone would use Atta's identity while he was still alive, but fail to consider that an identity dies when the person dies.

You make sure the body is never found, or is at least destroyed to such a degree that identification is impossible. If you're in control of the government, this would be remarkably easy: ship the corpse back to the Middle East with a fake name, claiming that he was killed in a car accident.

Wouldn't Atta's parents, friends and aquaintences notice him disappear. That article before described a close relationship between Atta and his mother.

Again, you'd want to pick someone who didn't have many personal connections, or better yet, invent a new person as mentioned before. Failing that, even if his parents did notice him disappear, you can easily spin that into him falling into the cult and ignoring his previous life.

How would Atta ever notice he was being impersonated in a flight school (paid for with cash) if he wasn't actually training to be a pilot?

Because the real Atta is off doing things, and its going to be VERY easy to figure out later that he wasn't actually in the flight school.

If any honest FBI tries to look at his records after the fact, they just get threatened or fired.

Again, this goes back to how much easier it would have been to invent a fictional person.

Why isn't there footage of the accused hijackers in airport terminals the planes left from?

They snuck in the rear to avoid the metal scanners and so weren't seen?

Why are many of them still alive?

1) Prove it
2) Why on earth would a massive conspiracy like this not have already tracked them down and killed them already? As long as they're alive, they're a MASSIVE threat to the whole theory.

Drocket wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I guess the bomb sniffing dog's reaction

Believe it or not, bomb (and drug) sniffing dogs aren't actually all that reliable.

true

$4000 cash are just yet another coincidence?

$4000 really isn't all that much. Maybe it was payday.

So thats why witnesses saw them “dancing“, “high-fiving“, and “celebratingâ€

Drocket wrote:

Wouldn't Atta's parents, friends and aquaintences notice him disappear. That article before described a close relationship between Atta and his mother.

Again, you'd want to pick someone who didn't have many personal connections, or better yet, invent a new person as mentioned before. Failing that, even if his parents did notice him disappear, you can easily spin that into him falling into the cult and ignoring his previous life.

Inventing an identity would be good if you were just trying to cover your own identity long enough to get a plane ticket. FBI director Mueller said some hijacker identities were probably fake actually.

But if you are trying to frame someone an identity with a easily verifiable history would be better.

Why isn't there footage of the accused hijackers in airport terminals the planes left from?

They snuck in the rear to avoid the metal scanners and so weren't seen?

Why are many of them still alive?

1) Prove it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 559151.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... iden23.xml
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Daily ... 10920.html

The FBI has still not updated its list despite these developments.

2) Why on earth would a massive conspiracy like this not have already tracked them down and killed them already?

According to those articles alleged hijackers were living in Morrocco, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, so it might have been hard to track them down. Had they been in the US...

As long as they're alive, they're a MASSIVE threat to the whole theory.

I wish that were so, but people can be stubborn with their beliefs and often won't look at what is right before them.

Anonymous wrote:So thats why witnesses saw them ?dancing?, ?high-fiving?, and ?celebrating? as they took pictures of the World Trade Center disaster!

Just because someone is happy about the event doesn't mean that they're guilty of committing it. If it was, that's definitely a whole lotta evidence against Bin Laden right there...

Not all of them have to know necessarily perhaps only the boss of the Israeli company that left the week before knew, but protected his employees by moving. Random Israelis could be lured out with on a preconcieved excuse.

Also with the ammount of money the consiparors are deemed to have bribery would be easy.

Why risk the security of a major international conspiracy to simply save a few nobodies?

Thats why they wouldn't use a car at all in the first place! And I guess they brought their Arabic flight manual and left it in the car so they could study it on the way to the airport. In case they forget how to accuratly hit a skyscrapper at near mach speed.

They would have already had a car - the terrorists (no matter who you think they are) would need it to attend the flight school and get around in general. Once they have the car, its not exactly an easy thing to get rid of: people are going to know what kind of car the accused hijackers drove, and are going to go looking for it. Giving the car to another Al-Qaeda operative would simply be a pointless security risk. So they simply drove it to the airport and abandoned it. As for the items in the car: a lot of people store tons of junk in their cars. Maybe on the last day of flight school, he threw it in the backseat and it got kicked under the seats. Even if it wasn't in his car, it would have been in his house/apartment and you'd be making the same argument about it being there.

Prove it then.
Here's my evidence he denied it on Oct. 10th:
http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.p ... 92&TagID=2

Well, I can't say I'm terribly impressed by the credibility of any website that calls Bin Laden a 'Holy Warrior'...

Ignoring that, though... Its a bit too late for me to do a full-fledged search. One quite link that I did find rather interesting was http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewart ... icleID=977 . Whats interesting is on page 3. In the interview you linked, he uses Islam's condemnation of hurting innocents as 'proof' that he wasn't involved. On page 3 of the link I just posted, though, he quite clearly states that no 'innocents' were killed in the attack - he considers (considered) them to be valid military targets for attack. So we're already down to him splitting hairs...

Please present your evidence.

See previous link, where he spends a long, long, LONG time gloating over the attack and telling America exactly what's its done wrong to deserve the attack.

When Pearl Harbor was attacked what did we do? When the WTC was attacked what did we do? We fought and went to war. This concept is ingrained in our culture and media.

Still not quite seeing your point. Al-Qaeda already sees itself as being at war with the US. Bin Laden has spent years calling for Jihad against the US.

So you think Israelis are saints who never consider their own interests? How can you put them above nearly everyone else in the world like that?

The absolute furthest that you can push that logic is that maybe Israel isn't doing everything it can to stop Al-Qaeda. Which would be pretty stupid of them, considering that Al-Qaeda is determined to wipe out Israel.

Israel's Prime Minister Sharron

I'm definitely not going to try to defend Sharron. The man is scum on 2 legs. Not quite the same thing as a major international conspiracy, though...

Only the president has the authority to order a civilian plane shot down.

So? Again, if Bush (or his controllers) knew about the deal, they'd want to have Bush portrayed in the best light possible, not reading a story about goats to schoolchildren while the WTC burned.

From all directions? I think it was hit by debris from the side facing the towers. That would cause a topple before an even collapse.

Perhaps falling rubble hit the building on its roof, causing the frame to buckle.

Pull is a term controlled demolition experts use:

Just because a word has a possible meaning doesn't mean that that's the meaning that you should use, especially when an alternative meaning makes a whole lot more sense in terms of what was going on (being interviewed.)

I think they got the terror thing across with just the towers.

And additional terror would have been bad, huh?

Anonymous wrote:Inventing an identity would be good if you were just trying to cover your own identity long enough to get a plane ticket.

Seeing as you've already given control over law enforcement over to the conspirators, you're not going to have to worry much about it falling through. Once you're in the immegration system, it would be quite simply to fake a background, complete with a nice background, then use that the print up fake passports. Its simply a stupid security risk to use real people, especially LIVING real people.

But if you are trying to frame someone an identity with a easily verifiable history would be better.

Not when they're off living and creating more verifiable history that shows that they couldn't have been where you said they were.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... iden23.xml
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Daily ... 10920.html

The FBI has still not updated its list despite these developments.

Just because someone claims to be a particular person doesn't mean that they actually are (AKA - there are a lot of weirdos in the world.) Still, there is a chance that the FBI has gotten some of the identities wrong. That's a far cry from saying that ALL of them are wrong, though. As for the list not being updated, it seems like a massive world-wide conspiracy would keep on top of that sort of thing, doesn't it?

According to those articles alleged hijackers were living in Morrocco, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, so it might have been hard to track them down. Had they been in the US...

Again, then, why steal the identities of living people when there's a major risk of them showing up later?