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Jon Leir wrote:I think having a town for the Evil people of WoD would be great.

How about Buc's?

So if bucs is to be made a town for 'Evil' characters, does that mean to kill an npc you wouldn't get the warning gump? If you attack a sister or a pirate does it give you a gump that says "This action will label you as a Law Abiding Citizen?"

I do like the idea of a town for the negative virtue. The NPCs and shopkeepers could be skeletons and ghosts (who don't attack) and you could impliment the negative virtue guard quests. Like from shadow knights, searching a dungeon for a lost necro book or potion.

You would still have to make this town accessable to ALL players though. All players can go to the good towns, if you are grey you get attacked by the guards. You could make it so that in the evil town if you have positive virtue and not grey you get attacked by guards.

Just some thoughts- Take 'em or leave 'em.

Bassett wrote:

Jon Leir wrote:I think having a town for the Evil people of WoD would be great.

How about Buc's?

Sheesh Bassett, just steal my idea!

How's this sound: Buc's Den is the evil city, the Rogue Knights are the Town Guards and you get "evil" quests from them, like gathering NPC heads. "Kill 6 Brothers from the Abbey and return their heads to me," something like that. When you turn them back in, you lose virtue.

Maybe the Rogue Knight Guards could sometimes attack you when you turn the heads in rather than giving you negative virtue (the whole "double-cross" thing makes perfect evil sense to me). There should also be a graveyard on Buc's Den for necromancers to do their necro thing.

The NPCs on Buc's Den will still attack you, but the Rogue Guard Knights won't, at least not on sight.

*My own opinion, and not representative of my future character's play style*

Why must evil be fractured?
It is often made out to be so in books and movies to give the main characters a chance of winning, but what I find truly scarey, truly challenging as an adversary, is evil unified.

A group of people organized together towards a common goal and purpose. Creating such a force that a lone person could not hope to stand up to it. Many then turn away, dig their heads into the sand, try to ignore it. Watch as their neighbors are struck down. Untill finally that group turns to them, and there is nobody left to help.

In that situation you can have a few trying to struggle against this force, trying to wake others up to its hazard. Dealing as much with the evil of that group as with the apathy and indifference of the common man.

There is also the situation of fractured forces of good that can be interesting. They can have differences of aproach, differences of goals, and think that the methods of the other groups will be unable to stop evil.

You also should ask the question as to why a group or person is evil? Do the people in bucs den just hate everyone else? What would cause them to be that way?

Perhaps they don't hate everyone, they just don't care. An outsider to them is worth the equitment they are wearing, and whatever body parts can be sold to a necromancer/doctor.

Maybe they don't think of themselves as evil, what of the necromancer who views the bodies of the dead as mere material components. Viewing himself no different then any other craftsman. His casuall acceptance of the acts he commits is as scarey if not more so then pure malevolence.

*Part about bucceneer's den*

Make bucceneer's den a pirate town. It could be made up of pirates, smugglers, outcasts, slavers, and necromancers.

Some of the pirates could steal and plunder thinking themselves no different then the merchants nobles and kings of the world, who exploit and steal from the poor.
Or maybe they could have long ago dulled their concience to the work they commit daily. Perhaps they enjoy the thrill or challenge of it.

With the smugglers perhaps they don't view their merchandice as illegal, perhaps it is just unnaccepted by society at large. They could find themselves having no moral problems with smuggling.

With the slavers perhaps they think their cargo inhuman, much like packhorses or oxen. If you are going to put in slavers I suggest orcs ratmen and lizardmen be much of the cargo.

Outcasts may find themselves not accepted in normal society, but accepted here despite their failings for what they can contribute.

The necromancers as mentioned before could just view themselves as craftsmen. Or perhaps thanatologists, exploring undeath to better explore life.

*Gameplay Mechanics*

Perhaps evil quests could include smuggling narcotic substances, escorting/capturing slaves, harvesting necromatic components(body parts), or keeping people about town in line.

(If perhaps Joe the Freak owes Billy the One Eyed 40 gold, you can get it back for Billy, either through theft or murder)

I think that would make for a more interesting town, and a more interesting evil.

It should be noted that most people who are "evil" don't consider themselves so. Tyrants and despots wield power without regard for life and morality yes, but it is more the abesence of knowing what is 'right' than what is wrong.

Take Marius for example. It is his intention to bring about a bloody revolution and seat himself as the undead King of Britannia. Evil? Very. Does he think so? No. To Marius, it is a logical and understandable way to fulfil his desires, and also bring about what he perceives as "true order" to the realm. Thus, in a way, Marius is trying to bring about the betterment of the shard, but his acts and motives are "evil" - but to make my point, he is not considered evil to himself. Indeed, it is "evil" Queen Lissar who thwarts his plans!

In the end, it is about perception. I don't want to delve into politics, so I'll dip into history. Suppose we look back at the Crusades. From a "western" point of view, the "evil" Saracens would not yield the holy city! But from their point of view no doubt the "evil" foreigners came to conquer their land!

In a clear-cut game like WoD (orcs are evil, britannians are good, etc) that's a little more difficult to pull off. Many people, just as in real life, want the enemy to be visible and before them. The want their cause to be just, and their opposition nefarious and evil. The game is structured so that "civilisation" is good and honourable, and the "uncivilised" (monsters who dwell in caves) are evil.

Also, Evil is not chaotic. There is nothing to say that evil can not co-operate... for a time. Ultimately, an evil person is out for themselves (in the most simplistic sence) and that will always overcome any desire, or threat or promise of glory.

I am thinking of doing some Necromancer (light) role-play using the Temple of Fire as a place to have 'evil' congregations, because it very much fits the bill. What I like about WoD is that "Evil" isn't bastardised into the game mechanics *too much*, and it's not just a game option.

"Hmm, I might play a Mage. Yep; magery, magic resistance and invocation. Should I be evil? Yeah, you get better quests that way.."

I have long argued that people with negative virtue are *not* evil, and it is the actions that determine thus. And I still hold to that. Just because you get negative virtue does not make you evil. Marius does not have a virtue title, and I make it almost a point to do so, because I dislike that virtue can be "tagged" onto a person. Suffice to say, it is a game and I understand why it's done, but Marius, in my opinion, is a scheming villian that is very evil, and I do not feel the need to get "dastardly" prefixed to my name to validate that.

I dislike the assumption that because I haven't wasted time killing townsfolk and poisoning monsters, that my character isn't evil. (Though I do enjoy the attention, even if negative, because now I know how celebrities feel

Marius the Black is certainly not the first "evil" player character to exist, but certainly when I came here, it was a very taboo issue, and I had long debates about it. I've fought hard to claim my niche, and I've nestled quite well in it. But, that's no excuse to become content! There'll be lots more stories of Marius' exploits, and when I can find the time, I need to organise some 'evil' events.

Keep up to date on my soon-to-be-open store, and the library petition I've just put out.

- Marius the Evil
Still Long-Winded as Usual

marius is evil. im trying to be like him. but im not doing a very good job. i thikn im disapointing him *looks sad* do i disapoint you master?

Marius the Black wrote:It should be noted that most people who are "evil" don't consider themselves so . . .Take Marius for example. It is his intention to bring about a bloody revolution and seat himself as the undead King of Britannia. Evil? Very. Does he think so? No.

Could have fooled me All the talk about doing 'evil things' and that annoying maniacal laughter of his makes Marius sound like a caricatural representation of the 'evil genius' character (kinda like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers ).

To me, a truly evil person is someone who was 'good' before he/she turned 'evil.' They say that in order to really hate, you must have known love first. Likewise, you must know good in order to know evil, because evil is the antithesis of good (the light v. darkness metaphor).

From a philosophical standpoint, I would say that the state of being truly 'evil' is to be consciously aware of one's evil behaviour. For example, a thief might steals out of necessity while an evil thief steals out of greed. It is possible to be an evildoer but not evil yourself. If a person comes to realize that what what he or she is doing is wrong but chooses to do so anyway, then that person does not only do evil but becomes evil by refusing to do what is good.

Now, while Hitler might have thought he was doing great things for his country, somewhere deep inside of him he must have realized that what he was doing was not good at all. If you take the position that Saddam Hussein was the poor victim of an abusive childhood and that's why he did the things he did then you cannot hold him accountable for any of his actions as an adult. But of course we know that is not true. Somewhere along the line Saddam must have learned that murder was wrong, torture is inhuman, and that he would have to pay the price for his selfishness one day.

The truly evil character is someone like Lord Gizash, a former Champion of virtue who forsook the path of righteousness for personal gain and selfish ambition. A faustian character who makes a pact with the devil to gain power and glory at the expense of everyone and everything else.

So you see Marius, before you can become Lucifer, you must first be an 'angel of light'

In a clear-cut game like WoD (orcs are evil, britannians are good, etc) that's a little more difficult to pull off. Many people, just as in real life, want the enemy to be visible and before them. The want their cause to be just, and their opposition nefarious and evil. The game is structured so that "civilisation" is good and honourable, and the "uncivilised" (monsters who dwell in caves) are evil.

So you mean to tell me orcs and the other monsters are like native Americans and we are like the European settlers who robbed them off their land, strip them off their possession and slaughtered their children and their children's children?

I dislike the assumption that because I haven't wasted time killing townsfolk and poisoning monsters, that my character isn't evil. (Though I do enjoy the attention, even if negative, because now I know how celebrities feel

Now THAT is evil my friend Oh the fame, the glory, more more! I want MOREEEEEE! Muahahahaha!

- Joram Lionheart, (*who recognizes there is evil in all of us*)

Too bad POL isn't up to AOS, then you could simply use the town ( Malas, I believe ) designed for Necromancers as this sort of town. Have a constant "invasion" force of inquisitors, trying to rid the town of all the negative virtue folks and "evil" mobs. It would be the negative folks who could choose to repel this mob or not.

I got it. Instead of bowing down to these "evil" folks and trying to make things "nice" for Them, why not make a new shard just for them. I bet it would be easier to script. Better yet they can go over to Ackadia.
:OP

I got it. Instead of bowing down to these "evil" folks and trying to make things "nice" for Them, why not make a new shard just for them. I bet it would be easier to script. Better yet they can go over to Ackadia.
:OP

You got it....That statement is the very last straw for me on WOD.

Tamla Tamara wrote:I got it. Instead of bowing down to these "evil" folks and trying to make things "nice" for Them, why not make a new shard just for them. I bet it would be easier to script. Better yet they can go over to Ackadia.
:OP

OMFG.

/cry more and he shall recieve I guess.

*edit* Tamla, you seem to think just cause "TPB" made a hella strong guard you can snap your fingers and have things done. Queen Lissar has returned..er wait...just someone who thinks their a queen.

You guys must be joking. I was laughing when I posted that. Don't take everything so serious.

I had no idea PTB were going to do anything with the guards. So I guess it's all my fault.

Actually I think a new "evil" shard would be cool, and a lot easier to script (easier than trying to change things here). Just change the colors blue to red or gray, and gray or red to blue. Have the "evil" townsfolk be red and Ogre Lords blue. Have the "evil" type quests that Dell was talking about.

The Ackadia part was a JOKE.

I don't complain very often, I am actually very easy-going and generous. I didn't start the post, all I am trying to do is defend myself and try to think of solutions to this obvious "killing guards I want to be evil and inconsiderate to other players" problem. I don't deserve this ridicule.

That goody-two-shoes Joram Lionheart wrote:..like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers..

Well, he was my frickin' inspiration!

Oh and, if you have to be uber good to be uber evil (which is just a trite cliche established for morality purposes and making people feel better) shouldn't we all be worrying about you, big J, since you're like, the paragon of virtue?

You know what they say about ivory towers and falling from heights..

-M

I really do think that there's a good basis for a good vs. evil shard, but you see, that's just not what WoD is about. Even confining 'evil' to a specific town doesn't really work, because good players are inherently going to want to go there to take out the evil.

Ultimately, all I can really say is that any major push in this direction is outside the scope of what WoD is.