theworldofdreams.com

IDEAS UPON THE SUBJECT OF COURTESY AND AVOIDING DISPLEASURE OF OTHERS HERETOFORE PRESENTED AS SUGGESTIONS AND OBSERVATIONS THEREOF

(Or, posting nicely)

Herein detailed is a set of rules, (which I would hope could be taken and elevated to *actual* rules, though I stress I don't have the authority nor the power alone to do that), though posed only as suggestions or guidelines, that I beseech each and every good WoDian follow, in the name of turning these forums back into a place of civility and enlightened conversation, rather than childish bickering. I find it upsetting that very few issues can be discussed without unconstructive argument forming.

Additions Welcomed and Encouraged.

* * * * *

1. Try to Avoid Accusatory Statements.

Try not to use "You think," "You are", and so forth. People who want to be technical and petty will say "Well, you need to use 'you' sometimes." Yes, you do. (see?) But, if a particular statement offends you, reference that statement in your own post. Point out what you disagree with, and why. It is much more difficult to offend others when following this rule:

"I disagree with Marius' arrogant remark that he is the King of Everything, as he doesn't wear a crown."

This statement is debateable, in the good way, but hardly seems like a bad thing. However, failure to follow this rule can amount to:

"Marius you aren't king of everything. You don't have a crown, and you are arrogant."

Which is very upsetting. I think I've hurt my own feelings now.

2. There are Things that Don't Need to be Said (again!).

There are certain things that speak for themselves. Of particular gripe is the "well, if you don't like it, then leave." comment. If people really don't like it here, they will leave - that's the point. Hurrah for choice and what-not. The people that complain about something are frustrated individuals who have a concern, but not the rationale of mind to post it in a pleasing way. Don't make the same mistake.

3. Address the Issue, Not the Person.

Similar to the two rules above; most posts are about a particular issue. Finding that you disagree with someone's statement is no cause to move the discussion to a smaller and much more petty debate. If you haven't got anything to say about 'Why Marius Should be King of Everything', then you don't need to post on that Forum. If you're only posting to assert yourself or put someone down, you don't need to post. Stick to the issue at hand.

4. If something Annoys you, take a Step Back.

Posting in the heat of the moment can be a very upsetting mistake. Granted, you can go back and edit what you said, but very few people do this. If a statement really, really angers/upsets/causes you to combust, leave it, and come back in awhile. If the issue is still touchy, ask yourself "why"? Sometimes restraint is better than posting an angry post.

Example:
Recently, I have found myself frustrated with the numerous issues the shard was going through (server-wise) and almost felt compelled to make an angry post. However, I took a step back, and realised that it wouldn't help solve anything. In fact, the way Laephis replied to another angry post about the same issue makes me feel better that I didn't. I certainly have his perspective in mind when I think about the next time the shard crashes.

5. Punctuate!

if you dont punctuate it makes it really hard for people to understand you this can lead to misunderstandings confusion and even total loss of meaning some people are worse than others but overall theres noone who is atrocious take the time to add those few extra punctuation marks and ensure that your message gets across

(If you don't punctuate, it makes it really hard for people to understand you. This can lead to misunderstandings, confusion, and even total loss of meaning! Some people are worse than others, but overall there's no-one who is atrocious. Take the time to add those *few* extra punctuation marks and ensure that your message gets across!)

6. Explain what you Mean, Justify what you Say.

If there is an excellent point you can add to a discussion, ensure that you back it up. If it comes from your playing experience, say so. "My playing experience is that Dragons are tougher than Vampires." This gives people ground to counter you on, such as; "Well, I've seen a Vampire kill a Dragon before when I've played, so I disagree." (or whatever). If you're speaking from opinion, it is important to highlight this. This way, people can understand you are speaking from your perspective, rather than irrefutable fact. Use phrases like "My opinion is," Or "The way I see it," or "From my perspective". Show that you're giving your side of the matter. Similarly, if you're speaking about Vampires in Vesper, or American Politics, ensure you define what you mean. Whether formally or not, make sure you are clear. A good example of this is when you are talking about people. Try to say "Marius said, and then Drocket Said", not "He said, and then he said and then the other guy said" - as this can be quickly confusing.

7. You Don't Always Have to be Right

Sometimes, a graceful loss is better than standing and fighting. A certain WoD-ite who was fond of batteries could have taken heed of this point.

When confronted with evidence you are wrong, admit it so. No one is so well illuminated on every issue ever known, and at times, a lapse in meaning, understanding or just folly can lead to you being wrong. Find the parts you agree with, and ask questions to enhance your understanding. No one looks down on someone who learns from their mistakes. It is, in fact, an admirable quality.

8. Grudges are Not Healthy

If there is someone in WoD you do not particularly like, or even agree with, the Forums aren't the place to pick on everything that they say. There's no need to show your distaste to a person, as this is simply (in my opinion) capricious and cruel. Personally not liking someone is not justification for being rude to them on the Forums. If you simply cannot remove the bias you feel, then do not post in to response of what they say.

9. Remain Objective

Sensitive issues are touchy areas. Deal with the facts. If you have a strong sentiment for or against religion, make sure you prepare yourself for when you enter a discussion on religion. Remind yourself that there are differing perspectives - each with their own validity - and try not to take such statements as accusations against yourself or what you believe. (Religion is only an example. Many people feel strongly on a number of issues).

10. Dont be Afraid to Ask Questions

If there is a point made by a person you simply don't understand, for whatever reason, ask them to clarify. Assumption is one of the biggest causes of communication breakdown. If you find yourself saying "Well, Marius obviously means this", or "I reckon Marius is saying", then it may be best to consider the statement further, or raise a question about it.

11. Humour is an Art Form

Try not to be offensive. Obviously, this is not as pertinent as the other rules here on WoD, though people who make jokes at others' expense must take care, as to not to hurt peoples' feelings. If you feel the need to make a witty comment, ensure that the person on the receiving end knows it as a joke, that it is not derogatory (in any way) and that you at least know the person well enough to ensure that they will appreciate the joke. Some people are more sensitive than others.

12. You Do NOT Have the God-Given Right to be Rude

Regardless of what Constituion or Holy Text it's written in, no one has the right to belittle others. WoD is founded on the ideal of "Community", and part of that definition is that people be nice to their fellows; whether they are lessers or greaters. Everyone is inherently respectful to Drocket, Ciara and the like. This courtesy should be extended to every person, from their first day. No one is beneath courtesy and respect. This extends to the Forums, which, from what I have seen, constitute a very integral part of the WoD community.

The trend is that people will treat others as they get treated. Lyl, for whatever valid reasons and justifications, presented a very forward and agressive statement, and was responded to in kind. Remember that if you post in a particular manner, that will set the tone, pace and mindset of others posting as well.

(Unless of course, everyone followed these guidelines)

13. Acknowledge and take into Consideration Communication Barriers

There are people who simply do not speak, write and communicate on a high level. There are people who simply choose not to, and there are people who have difficulty communicating on the forums. Do not relate this immediately to ignorance or rudeness - understand that everyone does the best they are willing to do, and work with what you have. Everyone has capacity and cause for great ideas. This particular rule references Rules Three and Ten.

14. Don't Make Up Rules and Guidelines for Arguments

"Well, no one said I can't do that" or;
"You're not a Tamer, so you can't comment" or;
"People who argue against this should be banned"

Save for a select few, we are all players. Subject to the assumption of the ideal of Democracy, Public Opinion does *not* create laws. Just because a lot of players want something to be enforced, does not mean it will be enforced. The Admin exclusively hold the rights to enforce, interpret and set the rules. The Forums are not a Courtroom. As much as Grievances are heard before Peers, no one can appoint themselves a Judge. Remember to inform other people you are speaking from your perspective. "It is my opinion that people who argue against this should be banned" for example. This references rule Six.

As players, just as citizens of any community, you are expected to abide by the rules in place, not create new ones. Specifically, do not highlight rules that do not exist (whether they are popular convention or not) as a way to justify an argument. As far as a self-regulating community goes, recommendations and suggestions can be made, but it is not up to the players to censure other players' negative acts. Discussed? Yes. Suggestions to improve? Yes. Detailes examined? Yes. Crucifiying an unpopular action? No.

15. Rules Made by Players Aren't Rules; They're Guidelines

These rules I have suggested are not enforceable. Every player will choose to accept or reject them, on varying levels.

For WoD, there are the Rules, first and foremost, which are enforceable. These are outlined in the Rules section, to which every player agrees to abide by upon joining WoD. However, whatever has grown from considerate playing or tradition (especially of older players) is not Canon, and is not enforceable.

However, common sense prevails. Someone who plays courteously, and with a community spirit can do little ill. As a player, do not try to enforce rules that do not exist. A guideline that everyone follows is not an enforceable rule; it's a really good guideline, nothing more.

16. Try to Write, rather than Speak.

Sometimes, a degree of formality helps. Posting on the Forums is "writing", not "speaking" as speaking conveys tone. Tone is essential for conveying meaning. Writing lacks that element, and must rely on punctuation, word-construction and other things. If you have something very important to say, post it in a way that is easy to read, easy to follow and easy to understand. Paragraphs and formatting help.

17. Take the Time to Post

In a world of Internet Forums, you really can save a discussion you want to think about, print it off, or even leave it and come back to it. If you have something really important to say, don't trivialise it by saying "I'm in a rush right now.." rather, write your good idea down, and save it for when you have the time to present it. That way, given full consideration, you can personally weigh its' merits and flaws. You may even come up with some more ideas, and enhance your original idea!

18. If You Don't Know How to say Something, Say It as Plainly as Possible.

Some people enjoy rambling, eloquence and other little niggly-bits of conversation that make it a fun (and amusing) hobby. Others use it as a tool. If you find yourself talking about a sensitive issue, or you want to present a very non-biased approach, simply state what you can as simply as possible. Avoid large words, over-explaining, or any other relevant details. Stick to the point and make your meaning clear.

19. Issues Need Resolving

Once an issue is being discussed, it is better to get it resolved and move on, rather than attempt to use humour to blanket the issues raised by the topic. In other words, if you are going to have your say and want your peace, by all means do so, but ensure that you stand by what you say. "I'm not going to post again on this thread" is a promise broken so many times I wonder why people even state it any more. If you are going to do something, ensure that you do it. If you want an issue to be done with, make your closing argument, and have yourself done with it. Hovering over an issue waiting for something to pounce on, especially after it's resolved is a deficiency of character, not of the thread.

20. Be Willing to Accept Difference and Change

Whether a new generation of players coming in with different views, or a new person on the Forums, be aware that they might not share your experiences or viewpoints and that while their arguments may seem absurd or foolish, understand their perspective is different. Similarly, newer players are encouraged to understand that there is a history, a proud history that many players adhere to and celebrate, and this can influence their post. To all players, remember that you represent different facets of the same community, and everyone who commits to the betterment of the shard, enhances the shard in some way.

* * * * *

This is all I can think of so far. Congratulations (and my admirable thanks) to Greywolfe who posted magnificently on the third page of the Overkill? thread, and to Homer, who always posts with grace and civility. (Homer, you have my unshakable respect after our friendly debate some time ago).

These kind of posts are testament to the ideals of the rules I have suggested here.

Feel free to suggest your own rules or additions or alterations to the twenty outlined here. Of particular interest, even if you make one post with these rules into consideration, as a sort of "test run", I would doubt there would be little to disagree with.

Thankyou to those who take on board these suggestions; you have made the shard a better place. Similarly, my gratitude to those who took the time to read these rules and present suggestions.

- Marius the Statesman
Advocate for a Better WoD

I hereby offcially inagurate this thread into an all out flame-war on Marius the Lame.

Marius is a doodoo head!

Nyah!

Joram Lionheart wrote:I hereby offcially inagurate this thread into an all out flame-war on Marius the Lame.

Marius is a doodoo head!

Nyah!

He is actually a poo-poo, doo-doo head!

Marius, thanks for taking the time to write this. However, given the one overriding ideal, that we can pretty much say whatever we want to (freedom of speech), don't be upset when people poo-poo the suggestions. They are excellent ideals, but if followed they would sterilize the Forums. The game itself is pretty sterile, the Forums have never been.

A hard and long read. You can tell Marius is a teacher by the way he wrote this.

Looks like you need another beating Marius. You know where to find me. I'll have the stick ready.

You should add one more thing to your list though.

"Do not make guides suggesting what people should or shouldn't post on a forum."

thank you marius for going to the not inconsiderable trouble of putting that together.

most of the people who use the forums abide by those guidelines as a matter of course. it is worth noting i think that the forums serve as a place where one can vent (within reason). i wouldn't like to see that tradition smothered by false civility. some people really do need a more vigourous slap upside the head than the guidelines would permit from time to time. my personal guideline is excruciatingly simple. i never post while my view of the monitor is obscured by the red mist of anger.

Marius, I salute you. This is an excellent list and it deserves a permanent place of some kind in our archives, manual or tips.
Of course, there is a dilemma on this subject. The forum, by its very nature, is a place where people need to speak their minds. Our minds, in turn, are generally kind of nasty, dirty and narrow places.
What I am saying is that ideally (as opposed to realistically), folks need to do more than POST without hair-trigger judgement and with civility and understanding. We need to keep an eye on that nasty little organ inside our skulls. When we withhold our critical judgement a bit while we think, we can speak with complete freedom, while offending unnecessarily less often.
A utopian thought? Hey- its the "World of Dreams", ain't it?

I rue the day when common courtesy and civility is seen as anti-ethical and cloying. By (Americans, assumedly) who hold the mantle of "free speech" so high, as is taught to them as an Ideal, it is upsetting that this right is seen as a right to justify any sort of negative communication, under the falsehood of "I have a right to say what I want".

The issue here is not saying "what" one wants, but "how" it is being said.

Granted, everyone has the right to say what they feel, but as is a growing situation it seems, no one has the right to be offensive. I find it disheartening that the interpretation of "free speech" exemplified by some excludes taking consideration of others into account. By whatever ideal this "Free speech" is, under the definition presented here, I would label it "Free Abuse".

However, I'm happy for people to speak their minds. In fact, as most people have noticed, there's rarely a chance I fail to do so! But the fact of the matter is, I have become tired of wading through interesting, thought-provoking threads, with wonderful ideas with great potential smeared by in a childish little squabble about who's Avatar is bigger or something. In essence, the whole guide constitues basically "If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"

(else Marius will rant prolifically)

Think of the guide as a sort of 'civilised flame'. It's me ranting about something, in the best way I know how. (The long-winded and polite way)

As to Atei's comment about the game being sterile: The game is sterile because the one major flaw is that the world is static. Granted it's 'persistent' and there are 'quests' and what-not, but my opinion on the matter is the world is basically player-driven, and given that no-one is "running" the world, nothing is happening. Look at the enormous effort it takes to get a player event going, and the little response that comes of it.

Now, this is not a criticism on the part of people who organise player events. I healthily encourage and support them. In fact, certain events precluded me from doing so (again), but I was going to take an active interest in organising such events myself.

Thankyou to everyone who took the time to read it. I'm sure that just reading the guidelines may enable you to take bits and pieces of ideas that may encourage you to help make the forums a better place. By no means am I some sort of Moral Crusader: I can (and have) been just as bad as anyone can be. But the essence is that if we all play nicely, we'll all have fun. Agreed?

- Marius the Retentive
Grandmaster Forum Nazi

That was a great post, Marius.

I almost don't want to make a snide comment about evil after reading that.

Wonderfully written, Marius.

I also applaud you for taking the time to put into the written word the thoughts that most of the folks using the forums adhere to.

With that said, the one thing that is missing from the list is how do handle "Trolls". See, in and of their nature, "Trolls" don't follow any of the accepted guidelines that we humans do. There is only one way to handle "Trolls". They must be bashed. Have to be. For as long as I can remember, "Trolls" have existed, they thrive on wreaking havoc against the unsuspecting individuals who just have a question to ask.

I have absolutely no problem abiding by these or similar guidelines. But the one thing I will not do, is allow "Trolls" to be "Trolls" without going Troll hunting.

*Loads Indestructable Druid Staff of Destruction and Troll Slaying*

Tristan Gryphon wrote:Wonderfully written, Marius.

I also applaud you for taking the time to put into the written word the thoughts that most of the folks using the forums adhere to.

With that said, the one thing that is missing from the list is how do handle "Trolls". See, in and of their nature, "Trolls" don't follow any of the accepted guidelines that we humans do. There is only one way to handle "Trolls". They must be bashed. Have to be. For as long as I can remember, "Trolls" have existed, they thrive on wreaking havoc against the unsuspecting individuals who just have a question to ask.

I have absolutely no problem abiding by these or similar guidelines. But the one thing I will not do, is allow "Trolls" to be "Trolls" without going Troll hunting.

*Loads Indestructable Druid Staff of Destruction and Troll Slaying*

I must respectfully disagree, Tristan.

Points to the sign that says "Please Don't Feed the Trolls."

I think the best way to handle Trolls is to ignore them. If it's not fun for them, they will stop. If their outrageous posts don't elicit a response, they go back under their bridges.

Just my 2 gp...

hehe

Point taken

But I like to hunt Trolls, you get good hides.

Atei wrote:

Points to the sign that says "Please Don't Feed the Trolls."

I think the best way to handle Trolls is to ignore them. If it's not fun for them, they will stop. If their outrageous posts don't elicit a response, they go back under their bridges.

Just my 2 gp...

No they don't stop, have you forgotten "abandoned chest mobs"?

I copy and pasted this thead to my very short list of "memorable posts." Of course, it would most appreciated if Aardwolf would be willing to add a short section in the manual on msg boards posting where this essay could be added.
Don't blame if I make references to your "guidelines" in the future, Marius. I think it's only fair to assign due blame when a thread has gone kaput! ("...and this is how Marius guidelines have managed to ruin yet another thread!")

I dont get it