theworldofdreams.com

At Drocket's .. request, I'm starting some threads about important topics and issues.

Hey, maybe I can get my own thread! Or, maybe you have to start out as a WoD Advice Columnist before you get there.. who knows how the trashy-magazine-like metaphor of the WoD Forums I'm using works!

Here are some questions for thought. Discuss your feelings on one or more of any listed below.

1. What does WoD have that makes it more appealing (to attract more customers) as compared to the up-and-coming MMORPGS out there?

2. Which encounter is more threatening and why: a group of mid-to-low level mobs attacking in a group, or a single, very high powerful monster?

3. How would you explain your first experience in WoD, and how does it affect how you now play?

4. What is the most memorable Seer Quest/Event you have ever been on?

5. Should PvP be introduced to WoD?

-M

1. What does WoD have that makes it more appealing (to attract more customers) as compared to the up-and-coming MMORPGS out there?

At the time, UO was the best MMORPG and I was too broke to get into anything else. However, if we're comparing WoD and other shards then definitely the staff and people. They're the bestest.

2. Which encounter is more threatening and why: a group of mid-to-low level mobs attacking in a group, or a single, very high powerful monster?

A group of mid-to-low level mobs, because I get bored with lots of weaker foes and tend to fall asleep waking up to a monochrome window and a journal filled with "Need help?" messages.

3. How would you explain your first experience in WoD, and how does it affect how you now play?

I died. I got rescued and the rescuer gave me a rather nifty tactics buff (Maddox?). I then continued hunting, found another tactics buff and sold it to Bob.

4. What is the most memorable Seer Quest/Event you have ever been on?

Seer Oso's maze and riddle quest a couple of years back. This is where Vince picked up his TrollSlayer sword.

5. Should PvP be introduced to WoD?

It already has been, however if by PvP you mean PKing then the answer is obviously no.

I'll stick some stinky opinions of mine on.
2. I'd say a single, powerful creature is worse than few minor. In some situations you can get those less threathening monsters work for you if you're tough enough.
Let's say you're in Hythloth, you run around, catch few hell hounds on your tail, face some orchish lord or 4. Run to the lords and wait for hell hound or two to catch you up, keep hitting the lords and hell hounds breathe fire on everybody, making them even easier to kill. This needs good healing and such, but makes it easier and lag isn't so critical if you got your autoheals set up properly.
Then if you're meleeing or casting spells on ancient dragon - you have to hit&run very much which might make your position compromised for attracting other creatures. Lag is very critical in this time, one lagspike on mage can get killed in no time. Tanks might survive, but still in great danger. Killing ancient with a tank is pretty hard but not impossible.
Also some questmonsters have ability to hit +100 damage through high armor.

3. WoD was very exciting and new for me when i joined. You could wander around the world being safe from pk's but not monsters, there were alot of places i never went to.(i never visited the dungeons except despise, destard and ice.) Well, hunting monsters was really a new playing style for me. No more building up skills while beating animals in guardzone or packing up with a dozen players so you could try to defend yourself against pk's
Now i can hunt anywhere - only danger being monsters. This has lead me to go solo all the time and ignore other players.

4. Can't say that there is any, i'm too picky on those. One with some talking puppy was ok, killed some uber-bad-ass bloodlich in deceit with Atei and some other players which i don't of course remember now. This might be the most memorable cause i actually got something "special", only time that happened, all those massive quests tend to slip away when it's 9am when it finally ends and you fall asleep on the time of split and such.

5. Sure why not, only seems no one cares about that. Hehe, no free pk'ing but some pvp-tours would do fine. I doubt no one bothers to stick up one - and if someone does: no one bothers to show up.

Marius the Black wrote:1. What does WoD have that makes it more appealing (to attract more customers) as compared to the up-and-coming MMORPGS out there?

UO has enormous appeal within itself that will not be easily replaced.

WoD has definite appeal as a
UO game because it is just plain easy to get going. You don't need to train in skills, you don't need to macro, you don't need to sweat...just run enough vendor quests and you can buy up your skills. Then go out and kill stuff or make stuff and sell it. Before you know it, you are a multimillionaire. It doesn't take a lot of effort, just patience and perseverence, to attain enough cash to buy reasonably uber-ish armor and weapons. The MOBs aren't really tough compared to some versions of UO. Thus, newbies can RULE in WoD.

With that said, WoD isn't focused totally on newbies, there are often player events and seer quests as well as frequent uberMOB invasions that can make the most experienced player blanch and sigh.

2. Which encounter is more threatening and why: a group of mid-to-low level mobs attacking in a group, or a single, very high powerful monster?

You must be referring to solo encounters? A single high level MOB is more threatening to me than any number of low to mid level MOBs.

However, any group of WoDians can take out any mob or single monster that has been produced. I've seen ultra powered MOBs specifically designed by seers to give some difficulty to players, scythed through with relative aplomb by experienced WoD teams who hardly break out even the lightest of sweats.

3. How would you explain your first experience in WoD, and how does it affect how you now play?

The very, very first experience? Hmmm, I appeared in Britain and I think there was a system message telling me to be sure to type .spec to set my primary and secondary skills or something like that.

I don't play anymore so I am not qualified to answer part two of the question.

4. What is the most memorable Seer Quest/Event you have ever been on?

Hmmm, the one Drocket pulled off where we all went to the new lands to take out strongholds and recover items. The old druid, whatshisname, was in charge. Y'know, the one that ended those pesky shadowpack invasions?

5. Should PvP be introduced to WoD?

Absolutely. Do a guild war thingie. People love that kind of garbage.

1. What does WoD have that makes it more appealing (to attract more customers) as compared to the up-and-coming MMORPGS out there?

Right now, nothing

2. Which encounter is more threatening and why: a group of mid-to-low level mobs attacking in a group, or a single, very high powerful monster?

The latter, of course. Semi-serious mobs (i.e. regular, non-seer controlled monsters) can be lethal but not invincible. I've actually had to face uber-mobs (at least two that I remember) that not all the best fighters in WoD put together could defeat. I'm talking about the kind of mob the seer himself has to intervene to help the players kill his own creation.

It's quite a lot of fun I assure you

3. How would you explain your first experience in WoD, and how does it affect how you now play?

My first experience? Umm, let me think. If I remember correctly a group of six or seven players (Dundee, Shade, Homer and some others) invited me to join them in Wrong the first night I logged in. It was quite an experience. I remember Dundee stopping every so many seconds to comment on how he was going to fix this and that (back then half the things in the world didn't work, and the half that did work didn't so properly). I was very excited at the prospect of being part of something completely new. At the time, of course, I didn't know how awesome WoD would turn out. I was just glad to be part of it.

For the longest time I held on to this dream. For me the appeal has always been the fictional, RPing aspect of the game. I'm not a great RPer but I do like to keep the fiction alive. Alas, I don't think the World of Dreams is an accurate name for our shard. The World of Past Dreams or Lost Dreams would be more fitting. The history I lived (and helped create) is all but gone now and this makes me very sad.

The last question is non applicable since I no longer play here.

4. What is the most memorable Seer Quest/Event you have ever been on?

Shucks, I don't remember the details anymore. Quests are my favorite part of the game so even if I could remember them all I'd have a hard time choosing just one. The last one I can remember that I really liked was Vernon and the Shadowpups. I wasn't too fond of the doggies but it was nice seeing an old legend again. Any quest that brings back historical figures falls on my 'favorite quests' list by default.

5. Should PvP be introduced to WoD?

No. If you really want to make WoD a PvP friendly server you'll have to kill the shard and start from scratch. Consensual PvP is already allowed as it is, though severely restricted. I don't think encouraging people to fight each other is somehow going to make this place more appealing (heck, don't the same people who complain about the boards being so vicious are in favor of in-game PvPing? One has to wonder sometimes what goes through their heads . . .)

(heck, don't the same people who complain about the boards being so vicious are in favor of in-game PvPing? One has to wonder sometimes what goes through their heads . . .)

Only if you assume there's a corellation between abuse and insult, and challenge and entertainment. Harassment on the boards is a personal issue that should not be tolerated. No one has the right to be rude to another person, and while they certainly *can* do so, it should never be encouraged or tolerated.

PvP on the other hand, is an element of gaming that goes back to the ages old instict of proving yourself against other people. It is my opinion that the only monster as powerful as a player will ever be is another player, so why not pit them against eachother? It would be a moment in WoD history if Marius and the Chaos Guards rode against Britain Castle, only to fight against the Order Guards and the Heroes of Britannia. That would be a battle to be remembered.

It is a mistake to lump all 'conflict' together because not all conflict is equal. I have never discouraged debate, intellectual discussion or constructive criticism, and it is those elements of people challenging eachother that I would like to see reflected in WoD as PvP.

-M

Marius the Black wrote:Only if you assume there's a corellation between abuse and insult, and challenge and entertainment . . . PvP on the other hand, is an element of gaming that goes back to the ages old instict of proving yourself against other people.

Having played on OSI you should know better than to assume people are just going to play nice every time they fight each other. If some people can't even stand to be told they are wrong on the boards, how much more sensitive are they going to be when an experienced PvPer beats their behinds faster than they can say 'I give up.' I definitely don't see board drama queens surviving the onslaught of PvP powergamers who are not only EXTREMELY competitive in-game but on the boards as well. I guess you never played on Ackadia so you wouldn't know but the Ackadia msg boards were some of the most vicious and flameridden forums I've ever seen. Whenever an issue could not be settled in-game by simple combat (and most of the time it didn't), the forums were the medium used to fight it out verbally.

WoD and Ackadia forums were as different as night and day. And the strangest thing was that the very same people who played on WoD also played on Ackadia. To encourage PvP is to encourage that kind of environment. Ackadia is not my only example either. I remember at least one great RPing guild on OSI that completely went down the drain after they become involved in PvP combat with other guilds. Suddenly, RPing and staying in character became secondary to winning battles and showing other guilds who's boss. The true RPers began to lose interest and only the powergamers stayed behind.

I'm sorry but the spirit of PvP is not one in accordance to the original WoD ideals. All it takes a few defeats and people start taking things VERY personally. Sheesh, how many times have I seen people jump to a defensive position just because someone didn't like their ideas. For pete's sake! how do you expect the same people to allow themselves to get into such a competetive and unfriendly environment such as a PvP shard encourages.

It is a mistake to lump all 'conflict' together because not all conflict is equal. I have never discouraged debate, intellectual discussion or constructive criticism, and it is those elements of people challenging eachother that I would like to see reflected in WoD as PvP.

I can tell you from experience that debate and intellectual discussion would not be the result of PvP. 90% of the time it ends up in bitter feuds and people holding grudges against each other for silly things. You yourself admit a forum with freedom speech will produce these things on occassion. How much more would a shard where I can challenge you to a death duel any time it feel like beating your ass.

In short, I'm not saying PvP combat cannot be fun. I'm saying it is not the kind of fun you are looking for. If you want a PvP shard you're going to have to kill WoD first because the WoD environment and the PvP shard atmosphere are very different.

hate to agree with Joram, but I'm with him on this one lol

This has a lot to do with my other thread, and I'm taking a lot for it. If you're unsure of what I'm referencing, please visit that thread in the Tech forum.

Joram,

You're taking the entire issue out of context and making it an alarmist issue. WoD is not a place where hordes of players would run around killing eachother, just because the flag was lowered. I sincerely believe the ingrained societal values of community, helping one another and the social stigma of PVP would exist, no matter what allowances were made for it's presence.

Also, I'm not advocating shard-wide harrassment and all-out PvP. I want a world where just like roleplay, players have the opportunity to PvP, and by doing so, 'tag' themselves up to be PvP hunter/hunted. If you're getting your butt kicked - I know I would, the logical step is to un .pvp yourself.

The entire flaw to this argument, on both our behalves is that we're both assuming what would be, based on what we desire to see the outcome. I would like to think PvP would benefit WoD, whereas you do not. Until it is implemented, even as a test run, neither of us cannot be sure or certain of what will be.

One thing I am certain of is that WoD is not OSI, and the screening and policing of the player base can exist, because there are comparitively trival numbers on WoD to OSI. The ideal society governs itself, as seems to be the case with WoD: as far as I know, most intervention by the Admin is often made public, as if delivering the case to the people was a valid statement.

Earlier, Joram, possibly months ago, you ardently argued that the separation between the Forums and the game was very clear cut. In fact, you went so far as to say that:

Joram Lionheart wrote:First of all, no one leaves because of what happens on these boards. They leave because they made a conscious decision to leave. More importantly, there's nothing that can literally carry over in-game except for hurt feelings. No one is allowed to harrass you or persecute you in-game in any way or form.

And I understand that your current post is proving the other side to that - that hurt feelings in-game translate to the boards. Is it not reasonable to assume that if players have a way of dealing with player issues in-game, then those feelings won't carry over to the forums?

Also, I dislike the way you construct the exception to the rule as the generalisation. Yes, I am more than certain that there will be incidences of unjustified killing. I'm more than certain that the Admin will have to settle disputes.

What I am finding, however, is that WoD is like any other world, and it is a world based around conflict. There is no challenge or conflict in fighting mindless drones. Why is it that quests are successful over normal hunting? Because there is a human element to the conquest. Why is it that PvP becomes the cornerstone (however unsuccessfully) to the pilot of so many MMORPGs? Because it is conflict, and it is what people innately desire.

WoD has worked hard for five years to remove any trace of that, and having finally done so, grinds to a halt and blankly looks around. Here we have Drocket, the "god" of WoD, begging that the conflict resume. And thus I am forced to square off with you Joram, to reinvest life into the Forums, which while temporarily, does nothing for the game.

You cannot dismiss an argument out of fear of 'what may be', because there are consequences to every action. If we are to fix WoD, we must look long-term and to the game, and find a way to make it work. PvP may not be the answer, and I'm certainly not saying it's the be-all and end-all. But it is certainly an element that many, many players who do not post on the forums have an opinion about, whether for and against, and it is them we must take into consideration.

I do not see your arguments as to what might happen, and any comparison to WoD as viable arguments to this matter. If there are reasonable and genuine concerns about this issue, then I accept them for what they are.

And I will, as soon as I see them.

-M

Marius the Black wrote:You're taking the entire issue out of context and making it an alarmist issue. WoD is not a place where hordes of players would run around killing eachother, just because the flag was lowered. I sincerely believe the ingrained societal values of community, helping one another and the social stigma of PVP would exist, no matter what allowances were made for it's presence.

Marius, I'm not telling you what I think might happen. I'm telling you what DID happen. Originally, all Ackadia players came from WoD. No, they did not run around in hordes killing each other. Sometimes I wish they had because what they opted for doing was much worse. "Ingrained societal values" went out the window the minute they started bitching about their "turfs" and helping the random stranger became the exception as opposed to the norm (after all you never knew when you'd be helping the enemy!)

Listen Marius, I'm not making this stuff up. People that I thought I knew in WoD (people who I considered my friends) all of a sudden became the nastiest, meanest, ruthless of enemies. My Ackadia experience definitely changed the way I dealt with certain people and did away with a lot of friendships.

Also, I'm not advocating shard-wide harrassment and all-out PvP. I want a world where just like roleplay, players have the opportunity to PvP, and by doing so, 'tag' themselves up to be PvP hunter/hunted. If you're getting your butt kicked - I know I would, the logical step is to un .pvp yourself.

For that you can just tell your buddy you want to fight and you can tell him to stop whenever you are losing. Honestly, I don't understand what is it that you want. You want a PvP shard but you don't want people to be forced to PvP? That's the way things work already. If you want an order guard to hunt you down all you have to do is ask. I'm sure you won't have a difficult time finding someone who wants to kill you (that's a joke btw )

The entire flaw to this argument, on both our behalves is that we're both assuming what would be, based on what we desire to see the outcome. I would like to think PvP would benefit WoD, whereas you do not. Until it is implemented, even as a test run, neither of us cannot be sure or certain of what will be.

It's been done. Ackadia was its name. The SAME players from WoD went to Ackadia and they turned into quarreling animals (in just a few weeks too). What makes you think things are going to be different now? I'm telling you what I know about human nature and human nature remains constant yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If you don't want PvPing to be required then you don't have to changed anything. Consensual PvP is not prohibited. If you, on the other hand, want to force people to PvP on quests (which is what it sounds like) then you are opening room for harrassment (like PKing) or simply inviting players to quarrel with each other.

And I understand that your current post is proving the other side to that - that hurt feelings in-game translate to the boards. Is it not reasonable to assume that if players have a way of dealing with player issues in-game, then those feelings won't carry over to the forums?

Let me make sure I understand what you are saying. If people were able to kill each other in-game then their dealings on the forums would improve. Umm, well yes I definitely see the logic there . . . NOT. Listen to yourself, you're not making any sense. If people were allowed to fight in-game that would only worsen their relation on the forums. Every minor in-game issue would carry over to the forums and be argued over for weeks until the participants could flame each other no more (which is exactly what used to happen on Ackadia).

Yes, I am more than certain that there will be incidences of unjustified killing. I'm more than certain that the Admin will have to settle disputes.

Do you have idea how many disputes they'd have to settle?

*Marius rambles on as usual . . .*

You cannot dismiss an argument out of fear of 'what may be', because there are consequences to every action.

I don't think I care either way. I've told you what I know happened last time something like this was tried. Thankfully, last time a clone of the shard was created to experiment on (otherwise WoD would have died years ago). If you feel allowing people to fight each other is going to make this shard a better place then I think you're being a bit hypocritical, especially after all your comments on how flames are bad for the shard. Ask yourself, honestly, don't you think what you are asking for is ten times worse than a few harsh words spoken in anger?

Joram Lionheart wrote:If you feel allowing people to fight each other is going to make this shard a better place then I think you're being a bit hypocritical, especially after all your comments on how flames are bad for the shard.

I really disagree with this statement, because I feel it is unjust. I am not advocating that people 'fight' eachother, I am asking for another outlet for people to express themselves. What is the difference? Well, for one thing, the only thing that is stopping there being PvP (NOT unconsentual PKing, which I am not advocating) on WoD is that it's 'not nice' to do.

I understand that you might have very bitter feelings towards PvP Joram, and maybe even feel threatened by it. That's your experiences, and you outlined them clearly enough that I don't need to repeat them here. I am not a hypocrite, because always I act best in advocating what I think WoD needs at the time. I agree with you - mindless PKing is useless.

But, to counter your sour grapes story, I have recently been playing on Neverwinter Nights, on a shard that has no policy on PvP. Certainly, when you have times of hearing about how a rogue griefer is hassling the north road, it bands people together to bring this griefer down, and teach him a lesson. I have spent time in the company of people both twice my level and half of it, and neither have I ever felt threatened with griefing. The only time I was ever PvPed was when I sorely tempted a person who was roleplaying their bitchy character and belted the crap out of my poor wizard - only to res me moments later, irregardless of the event itself.

PvP does not have to be a negative issue. Just because it was with Ackadia, does not mean it will be here. If any lessons were learned, they can be applied and improved to the template. Nothing is perfect. You tell me now how lack of PvP will 'ruin' the shard: look at the state of affairs. Arguably, lack of PvP is ruining it too. A compromise is required if the world is going to succeed.

"Well WoD has been just fine for 5 years without PvP Marius. If you don't like it you can leave"

All things change. WoD is desperately in need of a tune-up, and of the few provinces that are strictly player-related, PvP is one of them. Again, I am not advocating useless conflict, just as I am not advocating it on the Forums. What I want is interesting, stimulating challenge that can be to the benefit of all, and I sincerely believe, with my years of playing experience, that it can be achieved.

Try to put the past behind you Joram: maybe Ackadia was a failure, I haven't investigated or experienced enough to know. I did plough their forums a while back, and I did find the place to be arrogant and one-upping, a lot. That does not neccessarily make that the direct result of allowing PvP.

But for the sake of this debilitating into a useless "I'm right and you're not" thread, I'm going to pose a question.

Let's allow a compromise, and say that we're both right: That PvP COULD be implemented, but could potentially ruin WoD.

What changes or implementations would have to be in place - in theory - for PvP to succeed in WoD?

-M

Marius the Black wrote:What changes or implementations would have to be in place - in theory - for PvP to succeed in WoD?

Bring back Recall. Without a quick getaway, it is too darn easy to get ganked.

Allow names with titles and special spelling/display. mOrDReth WhO r00Ls will definitely have a better chance at intimidating his chosen prey than Bobby.

Create a Pvp switch to allow Pvp activities. However, once you turn it on, that character is stuck with the designation. Alternately, allow it to be switched on and off at random so that you can switch off JUST before you get your butt kicked and stick your successful opponent with a crim ticket.

Create a lot of code dealing with non-PvP players being friends with PvP players and healing them or looting or blocking or whatever and increase the admin staff by 10x to deal with the silly malefactors.

Make it guild based. You have to belong to a guild to do PvP. Guilds can declare wars on other guilds. Leave those who are non=joiners out of it. Make all towns non-PvP becaues us non-joiners don't wanna see bodies lying all over the place. It is just TOO untidy.

Still, all ridiculousness aside, it could be done and if handled properly, would work. It would take a LOT of work to be done properly though. Remember, humans are deceptive, two-faced, lying, cheating, murderous, (insert other negative human traits here!) as well as possessing more positive uplifting aspects such as compassionate, loving, forgiving and so on. It would be easy to leave a lot of exploitive holes in the system.

One key thing I enjoyed about WoD was the fact that anyone I might meet our in the forest was a potential friend, not a potential enemy.

I dont think PvP would world(guild wars or not). I believe one of 2 things would happen and more than likely both.
1-Most players here would quit. Hell, the main reason they are here is to get away from the PvP shards. Those PvP shards were more than likely pk shards but nonetheless, it would still be existant. I still get frustrated when I see a player attack a town guard or a townsperson.
2-With those people quitting, the quality of players being admitted into WoD would more than likely take a dip. And with that being said, WoD would take a bigger hit than it already has.

Then......even if we do allow guild wars. Is there enough people to actually build guilds?

Herakles

Marius the Black wrote:]I really disagree with this statement, because I feel it is unjust. I am not advocating that people 'fight' eachother, I am asking for another outlet for people to express themselves.

And what do you call this "outlet?" Player versus player combat? Sure sounds like fighting to me.

What is the difference? Well, for one thing, the only thing that is stopping there being PvP (NOT unconsentual PKing, which I am not advocating) on WoD is that it's 'not nice' to do.

Ah so you want to force people to think it is nice. I get it. In most people's books right now PvP falls under undesirable but you want to make them think it is desirable by encouraging it. People's opinions are stopping you from achieving your goal therefore we must legislate to change their way of thinking. Tell me if THAT is not hypocritical.

Anything that makes me want to kill another player is not nice and it will never be, no matter how well you sugarcoat it. It might be fun, it might be exciting, it might be a lot of different things but nice? nope. This is what it is all about. You want WoD to continue to be a nice place where people play nice and don't harbor ill feeling towards each other then a PvP switch is not what you need.

I understand that you might have very bitter feelings towards PvP Joram, and maybe even feel threatened by it.

I don't have bitter feelins towards PvP. I have been involved in PvP in WoD before (and Ackadia). It is the kind of change you are asking for (a shard-wide PvP switch) that I'm wary of, and it's not because of what is going to happen to me. Heck, I probably won't even be here when (and IF) that happens. It is what is going to happen to WoD that concerns me. PvP changes people. It will change this shard for the worse. I'm not saying it will be boring or that everyone will hate it. I'm simply saying it won't be WoD anymore. If that is what you want then by all means go for it.

I am not a hypocrite, because always I act best in advocating what I think WoD needs at the time. I agree with you - mindless PKing is useless.

You know, when Ackadia was created people argued whether leaving the room open for rampant PKing was a wise decision or not. As it turned out, PKing was never a serious issue at all (though it did occur occassionally). It wasn't PKing that divided the people who had once played on WoD. It was human nature, plain and simple. I guess you could say that let to their own devices, man tends to revert to his 'state of nature' (to borrow from Hobbes).
Can you honestly tell me you can tell people to feel free to slaughter each other and then expect them to enjoy themselves and not react negatively towards their enemies? Heck, if it is not true for the forums (where no one actually gets killed), why would the game be any different?

Certainly, when you have times of hearing about how a rogue griefer is hassling the north road, it bands people together to bring this griefer down, and teach him a lesson.

Ahh player policing . . . yet another wonderful feature of Ackadia.

PvP does not have to be a negative issue. Just because it was with Ackadia, does not mean it will be here.

I still don't think you undersand. ACKADIA WAS WOD (with another name and a different server). There's nothing preventing from Ackadia happening again. Certainly all the same elements are present. If anything, our quality of players was even better back then (no offense to the current players).

Now you say the world is dying and the situtation necessitates drastic changes. I agree. All I am saying is that if you think PvP is the road you want to take you better be prepare to forget about Happy Dreamland. If this shard goes PvP it will NOT be the World of Dreams anymore. If that is what you want then that's what you should do. Personally, I'd rather see WoD receive an honorable discharge than to see such a great shard become what it would become.

Let's allow a compromise, and say that we're both right: That PvP COULD be implemented, but could potentially ruin WoD. What changes or implementations would have to be in place - in theory - for PvP to succeed in WoD?

Basically, perfect people who do not get their feelings hurt easily, who don't assume the worse about their peers, who don't mind being told when they're wrong or letting go when they're defeated. In other words, you'd need the kind of people this world (and WoD) lacks. Don't you see? if to your estimation (and mine) a lot of people have no place on the discussion forums, how do you expect the same people to fit into a PvP environment?

Personally, I think I could get used to it. It's not like I haven't done it before. Heck, I might even like PvPing. If I get good at it (murdering people that is) I would probably even like it. But that is not the point. The point is that kind of shard would not be WoD anymore. I'm not saying it wouldn't be an interesting place to play. It just wouldn't be WoD. The only way you're going to be able to do this is if you are ready to kiss WoD goodbye.

Bayn wrote:One key thing I enjoyed about WoD was the fact that anyone I might meet our in the forest was a potential friend, not a potential enemy.

In a PvP environment you must always assume the worst in people (at least at first). That is, if you want to survive. Random acts of kindness are not necessarily encouraged either because you never when you'll be deceived, duped, cheated, or backstabbed. And remember that public opinion and rules of etiquette can't help you much when you are being chased by a guild of murderous powergamers. In fact, I think they would become--for the most part--obsolete (especially the latter).